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TV disappears, but HBO Max removing shows feels different

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Re: TV disappears, but HBO Max removing shows feels different

#101
This feels like a contract issue.

Rumor has it the issue is residuals but on the face of it that doesn't make sense. Why? Because you would expect residuals on a streaming service to have somethign to do with how many people watched the show.

If that were the case, there'd be no reason to remove it. So the obvious answer is that's not how it works. My guess is that HBO is paying residuals for having the show available regardless of whether or not people watch it. The problem then is that not enough people were watching it. That makes sense given it was also cancelled recently.

Another potential reason is the way residuals are structured. Writers' residuals decay over time. That is you might get $1000 for writing a show that you wrote a year ago and is broadast/streamed. If it's a 10 year old show you might get $100 for the same audience. Residuals for writers for streaming service is one of the big issues threatening to boil over into another writers guild strike.

Given that though, HBO might be removing Westworld while residuals are the most expensive and it could come back in a couple of years.

Yes, there's a lot of speculation here.

I agree it does feel like HBO is breaking their viewer expectations by removing one of their own originals.

Re: TV disappears, but HBO Max removing shows feels different

#102

I think part of the reason this is a big deal is that it breaks HBO’s brand. They have always been seen as a prestige channel that had a catalog of original programming you’d never see anywhere else. Westworld appeared to be part of this original programming portfolio and something that would live on as part of what it meant to be subscribed to HBO, like the Sopranos. Having the series disappear is like finding out t…

Yes but Westworld started out with a brilliant first season and went downhill from there until the 4th season was nearly unwatchable. The Sopranos was good right up until the end, which is not how I would have ended it. HBO might as well sell Westworld to a less premium outlet.

The Sopranos is a masterpiece on all levels, if that’s going to be your yardstick there’s not going to be much left.

Re: TV disappears, but HBO Max removing shows feels different

#104
post #67

Apparently some of these series are going to be re-licensed to ad-supported networks. [1] I don't think this undermines the premise of this article, that the current crop of streaming execs are moving TV backward to a more ephemeral medium. It's gonna be essential for independent archivists to preserve assets that are being discarded. [1] https://www.polygon.com/23513277/westworld-hbo-where-to-stre...

Yeah, that doesn't make me feel any better. Generally I have zero interest in watching quality shows with interruptions by ads, but on streaming networks they're especially bad. It's not like they bother putting them in at scene changes, they just jam them in anywhere.

Just one anecdote: The Roku Channel (on their free website) is streaming Seasons 1-8 of Great British Bake Off with ads. But with an adblocker, magically there are no ads.

Re: TV disappears, but HBO Max removing shows feels different

#105
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a false equivalency, the first takes nothing extra from the purveyor, the second takes significant revenue directly from the artist.

So you are claiming that downloading illegal torrents is in fact legal?

Something being illegal doesn’t say anything about its morality. Many things that we now think are normal were illegal not too long ago, and in many cases things are made illegal to protect the established powers.

Personally I only follow laws I agree with.

Re: TV disappears, but HBO Max removing shows feels different

#106
HBO was the original prestige programming channel, Netflix briefly got into that game but seems to have given up and preferring on making programming decisions solely based on KPIs to maximize total profit and now it seems like HBO will no longer be any kind of prestige programming destination.

Is there anywhere now to pick up the prestige programming torch?

Re: TV disappears, but HBO Max removing shows feels different

#107

I think part of the reason this is a big deal is that it breaks HBO’s brand. They have always been seen as a prestige channel that had a catalog of original programming you’d never see anywhere else. Westworld appeared to be part of this original programming portfolio and something that would live on as part of what it meant to be subscribed to HBO, like the Sopranos. Having the series disappear is like finding out t…

Disney;s business model for many years was to do just that, they would put popular titles "in the vault" only to re-release them a few years later it is proven economic model of false scarcity. Just like the McRib, McDs would never put it on the permanent menu because they sell more due to it "limited run" every year. I suspect these shows will be like that, they will be removed and readded periodically to boost subs…

McRib situation is a bit more complicated.

McDonalds would bring back McRib when pork prices would drop and they could negotiate large purchases of pork at favorable rates.

Re: TV disappears, but HBO Max removing shows feels different

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but Westworld started out with a brilliant first season and went downhill from there until the 4th season was nearly unwatchable. The Sopranos was good right up until the end, which is not how I would have ended it. HBO might as well sell Westworld to a less premium outlet.

Many (most) HBO shows do not live up to The Sopranos, and FWIW I completely agree with your assessment of Westworld, but I also agree with GP - part of the pitch of HBOGO, and then Max, is access to the whole back catalog of HBO. The Sopranos, yes, but also John From Cincinnati and a host of other ambitious also-rans. HBO isn't selling off Westworld because it's bad, they're selling it off because their penny pinchin…

He has the numbers though. He can see if hardly anyone is watching Westworld on HBO and calculate he could make more money by selling it and then using that money to create something people do want to watch.

As for harming the brand, I know what HBO used to be but don't know if it's that anymore. I don't know anything about calculating a brand image or how much it's worth, so I couldn't say in a landscape of thousands of competing outlets

Re: TV disappears, but HBO Max removing shows feels different

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d disagree that S2 is where the show went wrong. It holds up quite well on rewatch, with probably 3-4 of the best overall episodes. Ironically, I think Nolan & Joy made the same kind of mistake Dr. Ford criticizes in the premiere: They forgot why people wanted to watch Westworld . Fundamentally, the show was about the park, with all its mystery and detail. They seemed to think it was actually about the ideas around…

> the ideas around AI, consciousness & free will they wanted to explore I haven't seen S2, but with that description, and as an avid fan of the various incarnations of Ghost in the Shell, I want to see S2 to see how they explore those concepts.

Don't don't just don't. I was just talking to my son about this. They started with a very superior storytelling and by the end it was only mythology, maybe some story but zero "telling". S2 is still comprehensible but it appears they just believed the wrong side of their appreciation and went hyper on that.

Re: TV disappears, but HBO Max removing shows feels different

#110
post #101

This feels like a contract issue. Rumor has it the issue is residuals but on the face of it that doesn't make sense. Why? Because you would expect residuals on a streaming service to have somethign to do with how many people watched the show. If that were the case, there'd be no reason to remove it. So the obvious answer is that's not how it works. My guess is that HBO is paying residuals for having the show availabl…

> The problem then is that not enough people were watching it. That makes sense given it was also cancelled recently.

Ouch, apparently the writers were even planning on the next season being the final one.

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