Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

thenewatlantis.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 147 posts

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#101

Post by mft_ »

bhawks wrote: post #84
dalyons wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why though? Not a loaded question genuinely curious. More smoking up north?

Lung cancer == smoking. Colorectal is significantly effected by diet, physical activity and obesity.

Don’t forget screening.

Colorectal is an interesting case as we are already at a place where, by using current screening techniques in a well targeted manner we could essentially eliminate it.

As such, different approaches, or funding, or attitudes to screening could also lead to big disparities in incidence and ultimately survival.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#102

Post by mft_ »

wernercd wrote: post #82
msla wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why isn't it "Thousands of Canadians are being killed too soon in an effort to save the government money"? Because nobody's made that case. Making a case requires evidence. Not handwaving and appeals to movie plots. > We already have stories of Canada asking Veterans to join "MAID" instead of getting a wheelchair... As long as we're trading conspiracy theories, the person who reported that was paid off by the right…

"Nobody's made the case" Tons of people are making the case. https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-is-canada-euthanisin... "Since then, things have only gotten worse. A woman in Ontario was forced into euthanasia because her housing benefits did not allow her to get better housing which didn’t aggravate her crippling allergies. Another disabled woman applied to die because she ‘simply cannot afford to keep on livin…

I don’t think those are all examples against euthanasia being available - they’re arguments for needing better support to be available for vulnerable people.

Very few would argue with your underlying point that euthanasia should only be used in the right circumstances. But anecdotes which may be to the contrary shouldn’t justify removal of the concept altogether - just examination and adjustment.

A mature and reasonable societal attitude to end of life care —including euthanasia where appropriate— is a force for good, not evil.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#103

Post by mft_ »

igorkraw wrote: post #96
37 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if I understand, but the article gives a number of examples, such as: > Mary knows that she could control her pain if she could take vitamin pills, eat a special diet, and go to physiotherapy. She can’t afford it. “Mary identifies poverty as the driver of her MAID request,” Gibb-Carsley writes on a slide accompanying her talk, emphasizing the. “She does not want to die, but she’s suffering terribly and she’s…

I'm wondering, does this example work as anti-euthanasia instead of pro-UBI to anyone reading it (or the rest of the article)? It seems excessively cruel to me to try and force people to live in misery big enough to make the want to kill themselves instead of alleviating the misery . Like, the article seems to frame the argument that MAID can be used to lobby for better welfare as a ridiculous idea, but that's really…

Absolutely.

Eliminate MAID and these people will still suffer… because MAID isn’t the problem. They need better care and support in the first place.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#104

Post by [deleted] »

wernercd wrote: post #82
msla wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why isn't it "Thousands of Canadians are being killed too soon in an effort to save the government money"? Because nobody's made that case. Making a case requires evidence. Not handwaving and appeals to movie plots. > We already have stories of Canada asking Veterans to join "MAID" instead of getting a wheelchair... As long as we're trading conspiracy theories, the person who reported that was paid off by the right…

"Nobody's made the case" Tons of people are making the case. https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-is-canada-euthanisin... "Since then, things have only gotten worse. A woman in Ontario was forced into euthanasia because her housing benefits did not allow her to get better housing which didn’t aggravate her crippling allergies. Another disabled woman applied to die because she ‘simply cannot afford to keep on livin…

[deleted]

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#105

Post by Gravityloss »

larksimian wrote: post #65
8note wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For most of your life, the state is best aligned with keeping you healthy. The state's top priority is making sure you will be working and paying taxes, and you can't do that as well when you are sick. The state will stop caring once you dont have prospects for paying more taxes, but before then, the state has your health as a higher priority than even you do. Eg. The government doesn't like it when teens do risky be…

I'd add that old people still vote, so the state or more exactly some political parties will still have a massive incentive to keep people alive as long as possible. Regardless of age, healthcare scandals are a huge political risk so governments will always overspend to avoid them. The comment you're responding to is like a singularity of wrong.

I was first thinking "private healthcare can fix this gap". But in Canada there's no private healthcare alternative. Here in Finland we have all the alternatives: public healthcare (municipal and government level), employment health care benefit, health insurance and then even private pay cash immediately healthcare. It's got some side effects.

In a bizarre twist, the city of Espoo, which has about the highest GDP per capita in the country, is struggling with their municipal public healthcare absolutely overwhelmed and in crisis. People come to the emergency room for ailments that could have been remedied way earlier in non-urgent regular booked office hours medical center visits. But the budget for those has not been there, you couldn't get an appointment.

Why is this happening? Certainly they would have the money - it looks like they aren't acting rationally. One theory is that since most of the voters in Espoo have good jobs with a great health care benefit, they don't vote for politicians that would put money to public healthcare.

The Canadian system of there being only the public healthcare system would actually "fix" that.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#106

Post by ThunderSizzle »

msla wrote: post #75
wernercd wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It sounds like thousands of Californians are experiencing unnecessary and extended end of life suffering." Why is that your take? Why isn't it "Thousands of Canadians are being killed too soon in an effort to save the government money"? or some other take? We already have stories of Canada asking Veterans to join "MAID" instead of getting a wheelchair...

> Why isn't it "Thousands of Canadians are being killed too soon in an effort to save the government money"? Because nobody's made that case. Making a case requires evidence. Not handwaving and appeals to movie plots. > We already have stories of Canada asking Veterans to join "MAID" instead of getting a wheelchair... As long as we're trading conspiracy theories, the person who reported that was paid off by the right…

> thousands of Californians are experiencing unnecessary and extended end of life suffering.

> Making a case requires evidence

Where's the evidence that (1) Californians specifically, (2) are experiencing extended suffering, and (3) what evidence exists that suffering specifically is unnecessary?

I'm just pointing out dropping a comment like the first answer and defending it with the second is doing exactly what is being claimed -making a case without providing real evidence.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#107

Post by havnagiggle »

mumumu wrote: post #87
dalyons wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why though? Not a loaded question genuinely curious. More smoking up north?

From a quick search, it seems to be due the Radon gas. Exposure to Radon is the #1 cause of lung cancer on non-smoker. Canada ranks third on indoor radon concentration worldwide.

I only learned about this when buying a house and the inspector asking if I wanted to pay to have the test done. It came back positive and I disclosed the results to the seller, and in my state it requires them to mitigate before selling. My second house already had a system installed, but we also sleep on a second floor. I have always wondered how good the mitigation is; is Canada behind on public safety of this issue? Are Radon-related cancers on par in states with more regulation/mitigation?

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#108

Post by viraptor »

VancouverMan wrote: post #51
voisin wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being counselled to suicide should be ineffective if they want to live, no? This isn’t a 30 hour police interrogation without food, water, or sleep. Options are presented, and in some cases living with the debilitating sickness is worse than suicide. I think if they want to live, it is likely they want to live if the debilitating illness wasn’t there, but given that fact they choose death.

There's a significant cultural aspect we need to consider, too. Many Canadians, especially older ones who grew up when Canada was still a very high-trust society, have what could be described as a reverence for authority figures. This involves a significant degree of obedience, bordering on subservience. Medical professionals are often among the most revered authority figures to these Canadians, even to the point of…

> I think a significant proportion would feel obliged to go along with it, as irrational as this may seem.

It doesn't sound irrational to me. It's doctor's job to describe the available options, possible outcomes, and give recommendations. With enough trust, stating euthanasia as one of the best paths implicitly says: everything else is likely worse - do you really want to go through suffering that has the same end result anyway. And there will be lots of situations where that's literally true.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#109

Post by viraptor »

JoeyBananas wrote: post #70
voisin wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being counselled to suicide should be ineffective if they want to live, no? This isn’t a 30 hour police interrogation without food, water, or sleep. Options are presented, and in some cases living with the debilitating sickness is worse than suicide. I think if they want to live, it is likely they want to live if the debilitating illness wasn’t there, but given that fact they choose death.

This is setting the bar far too low. The system should push people in the other direction, and it should not just be a gentle push. Doctors should push hard to keep patients alive because that's what the patient (or taxpayer) pays them for. I feel like I shouldn't have to say that.

That's a bit too simple view. Another case where the often applies is older people about to die, but family arrives and demands more active treatment and care. Known as the daughter from California syndrome https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/daughter_from_California_sy...

Doctor's job is to give available paths and explain possible outcomes, their likelihood and side effects. If your options are die today or die in 3 days while a machine breathes for you and you're drugged like crazy to avoid the pain... no, they shouldn't be pushing you to live.

Then, there's the whole range where it's not 3 days, but 3 weeks, 3 months, 3 years, etc. with different levels of discomfort.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#110

Post by rayiner »

mmastrac wrote: post #79
rayiner wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why are people forced to live if they don't want to? Because we live in a society , not some libertarian utopia of sovereign citizens. Your life doesn’t belong only to yourself, but it belongs to all of us. Your parents, your kids, your friends, your acquaintances. We are all affected by what you do to yourself and, concomitantly, get a say in it.

Bodily autonomy is not a libertarian -only ideal, and the way you've phrased it comes across as some sort of extreme collectivism. I'm curious if anyone has a name for this philosophy.

No, your position is extreme individualism. Most societies have taboos on suicide. Attempted suicide was illegal in most of Europe and in America, and is still illegal in many countries ranging from India to Singapore. Assisted suicide remains illegal except in a handful of pathologically individualistic western countries.
Post reply on HN