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Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

z-wavealliance.org

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Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#101

Post by Tcepsa »

oflannabhra wrote: post #54

I see a lot of confusion in the thread regarding IoT, and to clear up some of that, IoT operates across multiple different layers of the OSI model: PHY, Network, Application. PHY is how data is modulated (think radios, etc), Network is how data is shared / routed (think WiFi), Application is the contents of the data across the network (ie, Light: Off) IEEE 802.15.4 - a PHY standard, equivalent to 802.11 standards tha…

Thank you for pulling this all together here, it really helped me understand what everyone is talking about!

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#102

Post by bombcar »

bioemerl wrote: post #66
horsawlarway wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see Zigbee dying right now. Hell - I used it before home automation was really a thing back in college almost 15 years ago now, and it's going strong today. Hue has always been all-in on Zigbee. (incl the new 3.0 standard - https://developers.meethue.com/zigbee-3-0-support-in-hue-eco... ) Ikea has gone basically all-in on Zigbee ( https://www.wired.co.uk/article/ikea-smart-home-kit-reviewed... ) Amazon…

It's a very different experience if you go to Walmart and try to find smart devices. ZigBee devices are still available, but companies I've seen that used to have them almost exclusively swapped to WiFi over time. Hue is still ZigBee for example, but the old generic bulbs at home Depot? Gone. Liquidated. Nobody understands smart hubs. Everyone understands their app. Bulbs, plugs, sockets, even thermostats. What do yo…

The Hue bulbs are now primarily advertised as Bluetooth but apparently still have Zigbee to talk to hubs.

I've found that the color changing is cute for awhile and then I revert to "on/off" (and have actually decommissioned some of my Hues)

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#103

Post by bombcar »

oceanplexian wrote: post #73
Lendal wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My house is standardized on Z-wave because I can afford a bit extra $ for each device in exchange for reliability. I can also add Zigbee if I need to, since my hub can do both. I just haven't needed to yet. Everything is available in both Zigbee and Z-wave versions, so I choose to pay the extra for added reliability. I haven't had much luck with Bluetooth and Wifi IoT devices. They tend to last a couple of years and…

Z-Wave also supports device associations which Zigbee doesn't. You can permanently associate devices together (i.e. switches) to create a virtual 3-way switch that will work even if the "smart home hub" is down. Which, from a reliability perspective is a much better design if you're installing something commercially.

I wish Z-wave or something would support some form of physical connection instead of relying on wireless. I'd be perfectly happy running CAT-5 to every damn switch in the house if I could get reliability from it.

I've fallen back to physical switches that can be relay controlled.

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#104

Post by bombcar »

vineyardmike wrote: post #97
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm using Insteon personally, which is mesh networked but relatively similar to Z-Wave. (And it's entirely proprietary still.) It's not just about cloud connectivity though: I don't want my home automation hardware speaking IP or anything like it. Nor do I want them to need a complicated enough protocol to justify requirements like firmware updates. All of this introduces opportunities for security flaws and the abil…

> I'm using Insteon personally, which is mesh networked but relatively similar to Z-Wave. (And it's entirely proprietary still.) One of the benefits of non-proprietary (especially IP based) is that you're more immune to company failures, like when Insteon shut down. > I don't want my home automation hardware speaking IP or anything like it Why? Its just a protocol? It doesn't mean a cloud is involved, it doesn't even…

As an aside I have some Best Buy "HomeKit" compatible switches, and they shut down the app long ago (and gave me gift cards for the price I paid for the switches) - but they're still working with HomeKit and if that were to fail they'd still be a switch.

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#105

Post by ocdtrekkie »

vineyardmike wrote: post #97
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm using Insteon personally, which is mesh networked but relatively similar to Z-Wave. (And it's entirely proprietary still.) It's not just about cloud connectivity though: I don't want my home automation hardware speaking IP or anything like it. Nor do I want them to need a complicated enough protocol to justify requirements like firmware updates. All of this introduces opportunities for security flaws and the abil…

> I'm using Insteon personally, which is mesh networked but relatively similar to Z-Wave. (And it's entirely proprietary still.) One of the benefits of non-proprietary (especially IP based) is that you're more immune to company failures, like when Insteon shut down. > I don't want my home automation hardware speaking IP or anything like it Why? Its just a protocol? It doesn't mean a cloud is involved, it doesn't even…

> like when Insteon shut down

Agreed, though I am not reliant on the Insteon company for anything but parts, since it's an entirely local protocol. And they're producing new parts again! I was also in a bit lucky of a position: I had plenty of spare hardware on hand while the company was shut down.

> IP seems the simplest option

If security is unimportant, sure. Insteon hardware has been around for three decades, but nobody in their right mind would be using network hardware from back then. This is a case of where complexity kills. Home hardware needs to work for decades.

> Plan when Insteon went belly up

I use their PLM interface which is just a COM port on my PC. The company's existence has no impact on my ability to connect it to newer things.

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#106

Post by AdamJacobMuller »

X-Istence wrote: post #100
AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> humidity sensors/weather sensors/motion sensors This was your problem. I've been using Z-Wave in my house since, I think, around 2010. I had major major issues with it at first exactly like what you describe. I "fixed" them by doing two things. A) Banished all battery powered devices from the network. Seriously. I have one in a hall closest I haven't gotten around to getting rid of, yet. The network seems fine-ish…

Jasco/GE switches is what I used throughout my house... but the whole point to me was to have a smart home. So when humidity goes up in the bathroom, the controller would kick on the exhaust fan. When temperature drops in a room that is active below a set point, the fan is kicked on for the forced air to start circulating + heat would get kicked on if necessary. The whole point of having a smart home is to have a sma…

I'm not arguing for/against z-wave, just, pointing out the flaws in Z-wave and how I overcame them.

I also have things like humidity -> fan, I just do other things for the sensor network.

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#107

Post by rlpb »

vineyardmike wrote: post #98
rlpb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AIUI, Z-Wave means interoperability at device level, without even a controller or a compatibility shim, across a variety of manufacturers. Niche devices can exist because it's easy for a niche manufacturer to integrate. And if my Internet connection is down, or even the controller is down, the system still functions with graceful degradation only. With Zigbee, AIUI you get a mostly closed system locked in to whicheve…

> With Zigbee, AIUI you get a mostly closed system locked in to whichever Zigbee vendor you chose. No, all devices should work with other vendors. Some vendors don't play as nice, however. The Zigbee light-link spec should allow all lights to work with all light controllers (eg zigged remotes on the wall). Any "true" hub should work with all zigged devices too. Some minor company's hub may not support all products, b…

Based on what others have also said, it sounds like you're describing interoperability in Zigbee in theory, whereas I described interoperability in Z-Wave in practice.

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#108

Post by ThatPlayer »

oceanplexian wrote: post #73
Lendal wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My house is standardized on Z-wave because I can afford a bit extra $ for each device in exchange for reliability. I can also add Zigbee if I need to, since my hub can do both. I just haven't needed to yet. Everything is available in both Zigbee and Z-wave versions, so I choose to pay the extra for added reliability. I haven't had much luck with Bluetooth and Wifi IoT devices. They tend to last a couple of years and…

Z-Wave also supports device associations which Zigbee doesn't. You can permanently associate devices together (i.e. switches) to create a virtual 3-way switch that will work even if the "smart home hub" is down. Which, from a reliability perspective is a much better design if you're installing something commercially.

Is that not binding in Zigbee?

Home assistant docs because I can't find a better description: https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/zha/#binding-and-...

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#109

Post by luma »

specto wrote: post #92
X-Istence wrote: post #52

I installed Z-Wave all over my house. Replaced all the switches, got the sensors, light bulbs where necessary, everything was Z-Wave... and it was a nightmare. I ended up selling the house with everything Z-Wave still in it, and the new owners were happy to have a "Smart Home" capable home, but I will never again touch Z-Wave. Once your Z-Wave network grows past a certain number of devices it becomes too chatty and d…

Agreed! Messes with Wifi too.

Z-Wave runs on 900MHz which is plenty far away from any commonly used WiFi bands.

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#110

Post by vineyardmike »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #105
vineyardmike wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm using Insteon personally, which is mesh networked but relatively similar to Z-Wave. (And it's entirely proprietary still.) One of the benefits of non-proprietary (especially IP based) is that you're more immune to company failures, like when Insteon shut down. > I don't want my home automation hardware speaking IP or anything like it Why? Its just a protocol? It doesn't mean a cloud is involved, it doesn't even…

> like when Insteon shut down Agreed, though I am not reliant on the Insteon company for anything but parts, since it's an entirely local protocol. And they're producing new parts again! I was also in a bit lucky of a position: I had plenty of spare hardware on hand while the company was shut down. > IP seems the simplest option If security is unimportant, sure. Insteon hardware has been around for three decades, but…

> If security is unimportant, sure. Insteon hardware has been around for three decades, but nobody in their right mind would be using network hardware from back then.

Sure to hardware but we’re all still using IP protocols. Countless companies have risen and fallen and that hasn’t changed. Networking equipment if kept LAN only should still work fine after 3 decades.

> which is just a COM port on my PC. The company's existence has no impact on my ability to connect it to newer things.

This sounds just as complex and risky as any modern protocol, just more obscure. If you need a PC for newer devices then it’s all the same anyways.

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