Live data from Hacker News

Time is an illusion, Unix time doubly so

netmeister.org

101–104 of 104 posts

Re: Time is an illusion, Unix time doubly so

#101
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Timezones, leap seconds... all of that only matters when you're showing the user a date. For recording and calculations, it doesn't. You cannot, by definition, tell how many Unix seconds later "third of may, 2025, at noon, local time" is - there is no way to convert future, local times to Unix times, because that "conversion code" is not fixed. Sure, we can reasonably expect that definition of time flow relationshi…

Is there a system that does allow you do to do this? I can't think of one that would. Local time requires a time zone, times zones are defined in relation to UTC, and there is an unknown number of leap seconds between now and 3 May, 2025.

Yes and no. The thing is that it is quite convenient to track time in computers with monotonic clocks, but it also turns out that humans do not define time markers based on monotonic clocks (when far future times are considered) and just from time to time [re]define relationship between time markers and monotonic clocks.

By definition you cannot unambiguously tell how many seconds in the future Christmas in a few years will be. However, it turns out that as long as you have the monotonic clock synced, time marker definitions up to date and have reasonably accurate understanding what local time means you can rather easily tell whether `now` is "christmas in 3 years, when defined at 123456789 Unix time".

We, humans, define time markers based on astronomical phenomena relative to this particular floating rock. A system based on time markers (calendar days, holidays, full moons, whatever) can represent human times, but is very inconvenient for computers, because they are not necessarily well-defined. I mean, 12345679 Unix time is well-defined in itself even if it is not well-defined in relation to real world while "2025 May 3rd at noon" is simply not well-defined today. Timekeeping is extremely weird.

This is a trade-off. Either you store computer consumable time markers (monotonic clock values), but have to do processing to figure out how they relate real-world markers, or you store real-world markers and have to do processing to figure out how they relate to the monotonic clock. Sans DST, the first one is much more ergonomic.

DST is pain, but turns out it is pain in both systems. If you have future time marker and there is DST adjustment between `now` and `then` you have the very same problem: you don't know whether DST adjustment was taken into account when creating the marker. Fun thing is that if you do control (or can infer) adjustments, both systems become very similar, but the current is much more ergonomic.

Re: Time is an illusion, Unix time doubly so

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Variation in the length of the synodic day is the reason a day may contain other than 86400 seconds. Indeed; so when the second was defined by a fraction of a day, that day was an abstraction which approximates any given synodic day. I take your point that the author's quoted statement was incorrect, as the synodic day is a function of the earth's orbital period as well as its rotational one. I also take your point…

> so when the second was defined by a fraction of a day, that day was an abstraction which approximates any given synodic day Commenting separately for this - I'm not sure it's true. To my understanding, the historical European division of the day was that the day contained 12 hours of equal length, and the night contained 12 other hours of equal length. They were obviously familiar with the fact that the day and the…

You have wakened my curiosity here...

I had heard that of the ancient Greeks, though Wikipedia gives the origin more vaguely as the ancient Near East. It is a practical way of thinking when you are outdoors most of the time, you are not very active at night, and a sundial is your timekeeper. It also helps to be at a relatively low latitude, where the seasonal variation is not so great.

This makes sunrise and sunset the important moments in daily timekeeping, and this is, of course, the case in the Jewish definition of a day (I would not be surprised to learn that Jewish scholars also worked with intraday fractions of the lunar cycle.)

If this did lead to a willingness to vary the second along with the length of the hour, this would seem to me to argue against the specialness of the definition of the second as 1/86400 of the mean synodic day. I doubt, however, that anyone but perhaps a few scholars at that time ever contemplated such a small division of time. The second only became a practical measure with the development of accurate mechanical clocks, by by then, mean time had largely taken over sundials and other forms of intraday ephemeris timekeeping, as that is what mechanical clocks measure. (This transition, I suspect, had a greater impact on the general population than did the adoption of the atomic standard, if only because the latter had no practical impact.) At that point, the second was defined by sexagisimal division of the hour (and thus, obviously, transitively as a fraction of a particular mean synodic day, given the definition of an hour in such terms.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second#History_of_definition

Re: Time is an illusion, Unix time doubly so

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Variation in the length of the synodic day is the reason a day may contain other than 86400 seconds. Indeed; so when the second was defined by a fraction of a day, that day was an abstraction which approximates any given synodic day. I take your point that the author's quoted statement was incorrect, as the synodic day is a function of the earth's orbital period as well as its rotational one. I also take your point…

> I am not so sure that any more than a rather small fraction of the population care that a second is 86400 of what was an average day at some point in time (even though it is is a good approximation for today's days.) What fraction, I wonder, have ever performed a calculation on seconds using that number, other than, perhaps, for pedagogical purposes? It would be unusual to make a calculation directly using the fact…

You can't deny the implication, but whether that elevates it to a position of special relevance is another matter, at least as I see it. Personally, unless I have been thinking about it recently (which is very rarely), I would have to do the calculation before answering the question of how many seconds are in a day (and if I were being more than usually pedantic, I would have to ask "which day?")

In my view (which, admittedly, is somewhat subjective), people are not even tacitly concerned with the number of seconds in a day unless they are contemplating the number of seconds in an approximately day-length or longer period. On the other hand, I can imagine some of my relatives, who were conservative in all matters almost by reflex, responding to the SI definition by saying something like "Nonsense! there are sixty seconds in a minute, sixty minutes in an hour, and twenty-four hours in a day, and that's that!" - once they had learned something, it was set in stone. I am pretty sure that the annual variability of the synodic day was not among the things they had learned, and the idea of a leap second would be deeply troubling.

I appear to have talked myself into agreeing with you that 60.60.24 is what matters to most people by default, as they don't know the minutiae of celestial timekeeping or the increasing importance of atomic timekeeping (let alone relativity!) in their everyday lives.

Re: Time is an illusion, Unix time doubly so

#104
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true regardless of how you choose to encode time and is a problem of local time zones not unix time.

Not really. Generally, you can tell whether "fifth of November, at midnight, local time" is equal to `now` or not as long as you have reasonably accurate information what "local" means. This is a problem of time encoding, because we do define what midnight is, but keep relationship between it and seconds passed undefined as long as possible

And you can do that when "now" is encoded as unix time as well, provided you know what local is. Although, encoding "now" is by definition pointless, since "now" changes with every instant.
Post reply on HN