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People Staring at Computers (2021)

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Re: People Staring at Computers (2021)

#101

Post by williamcotton »

ewzimm wrote: post #36
jason-phillips wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police forces were created to protect property and 'the system', not people, and that's what they continue to do. I think it's rather naive to consider otherwise. Somewhere along the way we were fed this childish mythology about the importance of the individual, which is definitely captivating, stirring one's imagination with sparks of creativity, but the truth is that institutions and 'the system' are the bedr…

In these discussions, there's always an implicit assumption of certain intentions being the "real" ones. Statements like "police were created to..." first imply that there was a creator whose intentions define the police through incarnations, a kind of "god of police," and, more likely, if it was not a single individual, it is a "pantheon of police" composed of its creators and sustainers. And then we have the image…

The term is "reification".

Re: People Staring at Computers (2021)

#103

Post by williamcotton »

antihero wrote: post #88
mjburgess wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole "let's turn this into a libertarian political-philosophical discussion" angle is a misdirection. (And an increasingly common one, eg., cf. crypto). The guy installed spyware on laptops in a commercial store and then publicly displayed the data collected. It's an open-and-shut case. Almost any person who went to that store, and any store owner, would be furious. It is these people the law here protects(, and…

It is literal truth that the first police in the US were slave hunters and the first police station in the world was to protect from theft at the Wapping docks

There were constables in England in the Middle Ages. There have been local volunteer watchman and paid constables in the United States since the early colonial days. There was also "hue and cry", whereby someone witnessed a crime and then shouted out and all men were supposed to help catch the criminal. This, as can be imagined, was sometimes quite the shit-show.

Re: People Staring at Computers (2021)

#104

Post by nescioquid »

ewzimm wrote: post #97
P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you get upset when people say "evolution does X"? It's the same thing, it doesn't really matter if the process is clean or tumultuous, it's a reasonable heuristic to understand the status quo.

I'm not upset in either case, but that's another good example of the problems in attributing personified intelligence to an abstraction. Especially in the early days, people tended to substitute "God" with "evolution" and shoehorn evolutionary processes into areas where they didn't apply because they used to attribute them to God. This still happens! Sometimes, it's just "the universe." This was usually based on the…

Put another way, society and culture are things that are essentially imaginary. They take place in the mind, and I doubt society or culture could organize itself without some shared imaginary space strewn with personifications and myths. Take that away and society and culture become impossible.

Your unease is more warranted for things like evolution, which does not depend on a shared imaginary space.

Re: People Staring at Computers (2021)

#105

Post by CharlesW »

newZWhoDis wrote: post #74
rrwo wrote: post #22

And for anyone who insists that Apple is one of the good guys: > In response, Apple contacted the Secret Service and they raided my apartment. After censoring the work online, Apple did not pursue a civil case against me.

Why would the SS investigate this? Seems like a task for state police.

I was curious about this too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Secret_Service#I...

Cyber investigations include cybercrime, network intrusions, identity theft, access device fraud, credit card fraud, and intellectual property crimes. […] The Secret Service has concurrent jurisdiction with the FBI over certain violations of federal computer crime laws. They have created 24 Electronic Crimes Task Forces (ECTFs) across the United States. These task forces are partnerships between the service, federal/state and local law enforcement, the private sector and academia aimed at combating technology-based crimes.

Re: People Staring at Computers (2021)

#106

Post by CPLX »

iamdamian wrote: post #87
CPLX wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean the definition of aristocracy is basically the people who get to make the rules. It’s the core point.

Without making a falsifiable claim about who this “aristocracy” is whose assets are the only assets protected by the police, it’s hard to test your statement or see how it provides value.

They’re the ones the police don’t fuck with.

Do you live in the US? It’s pretty trivial to figure out who is and isn’t allowed to drive around with large sums of money, or carry a loaded weapon, as an actual practical matter.

A good way of thinking about this is to understand that there’s an in-group that the law protects but does not bind. And an out-group that the law binds but does not protect.

It’s a dark vision of the world but there are many in the in-group who seek to preserve it.

Re: People Staring at Computers (2021)

#107

Post by Vt71fcAqt7 »

antihero wrote: post #88
mjburgess wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole "let's turn this into a libertarian political-philosophical discussion" angle is a misdirection. (And an increasingly common one, eg., cf. crypto). The guy installed spyware on laptops in a commercial store and then publicly displayed the data collected. It's an open-and-shut case. Almost any person who went to that store, and any store owner, would be furious. It is these people the law here protects(, and…

It is literal truth that the first police in the US were slave hunters and the first police station in the world was to protect from theft at the Wapping docks

What will you do if I rob you? Who will you report this to? What stops me from burglary?

Also, city guards have existed in Europe and China since before tge US existed. They didn't use the word "police" obviously.

I wish "cops = nazis" people would explain what they would have instead.

Re: People Staring at Computers (2021)

#108

Post by Vt71fcAqt7 »

nescioquid wrote: post #104
ewzimm wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not upset in either case, but that's another good example of the problems in attributing personified intelligence to an abstraction. Especially in the early days, people tended to substitute "God" with "evolution" and shoehorn evolutionary processes into areas where they didn't apply because they used to attribute them to God. This still happens! Sometimes, it's just "the universe." This was usually based on the…

Put another way, society and culture are things that are essentially imaginary. They take place in the mind, and I doubt society or culture could organize itself without some shared imaginary space strewn with personifications and myths. Take that away and society and culture become impossible. Your unease is more warranted for things like evolution, which does not depend on a shared imaginary space.

>Put another way, society and culture are things that are essentially imaginary.

Where did you get that from GP's post? They're simplying saying not to anthropomorphise societal systems.

Re: People Staring at Computers (2021)

#109

Post by uoaei »

themanmaran wrote: post #100
uoaei wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better question to start with is "where does the law fit into this?" What is the material consequence of this action? How does this affect people's lives? Why is that something that needs legislation? I'm not implying that there are no consequences, I'm curious how you interpret the issue.

> What is the material consequence of this action Almost none. Which is why there was no further prosecution. > Why is that something that needs legislation Because this is very similar to other acts that could have worse consequences. Consider instead of "installed funny spyware on apple laptops" was replaced with "installed funny spyware on ATMs".

Lots of things "could" happen...

Re: People Staring at Computers (2021)

#110

Post by antihero »

Vt71fcAqt7 wrote: post #107
antihero wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is literal truth that the first police in the US were slave hunters and the first police station in the world was to protect from theft at the Wapping docks

What will you do if I rob you? Who will you report this to? What stops me from burglary? Also, city guards have existed in Europe and China since before tge US existed. They didn't use the word "police" obviously. I wish "cops = nazis" people would explain what they would have instead.

The idea that you can’t criticise the failings and nature of something you also use are so tiring. Crime happens for so many reasons, some of which force maybe required to stop or hold people accountable, and many of the reasons are endemic to the system we live in. Other things could be prevented by provisioning elsewhere.
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