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Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

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101–110 of 139 posts

Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#101
The folly of monoculture forest planting forms the basis for a subplot in The Overstory.

I can't give a wholehearted reccomendation for The Overstory since it was a bit melodramatic for my taste. The narrative cadence of the book goes something like: tragedy, pointless tragedy, ridiculous tragedy, unrealistic tragedy and so forth until the end... with a dash of interesting ecology and history sprinkled throughout. I suppose it should be read as magical realism with "rage against the machine" vibes.

Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#102

One of my favorite anecdotes on this problem is Guatemala. The laws on the books are pretty decent, incentives for farmers to reforest land where there used to be trees, with the government paying for the initial seedlings and then yearly payments (with verification of tree growth) over 7-15 years as the trees mature. However, farmers quickly found a loophole where they could find a plot of virgin forest, clear cut t…

While that is obviously rorting the system, isn't it kind of ideal from a carbon capture perspective? One of the big problems with planting forests for carbon capture is that they often burn down, and even when they don't, the natural cycle of the forest trees dying or falling and breaking down releases the captured carbon too. Harvesting the trees and using them as a building material seems like a better way to ensure that the captured carbon stays stored for longer. As long as they aren't used for firewood...

Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#103

and what about grasslands? these projects will sometimes plant forests that were historically savanna and grasslands

History is gone. Also it is likely, that there were times when those Savanne areas were covered with trees. There is no shortage of grasslands that are close of becoming desserts with one serious draught, but there is shortage of forests, that hold the moisture and prevent further desertification.

related

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_to_C...

Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#104
post #46

> Not surprisingly, those locals often reacted badly. For example, in northern Malawi, they broke fences and burned a growing forest to get back the common grazing land on which the trees had been planted. In two Nigerian projects, villagers cut all the planted non-fruit trees for firewood, while protecting those that bore fruit. Recommended reading: "Seeing Like A State" by James Scott. The first section on Scientif…

Seeing like a state is a terrific book. It's possible that I learned the idea of forest death from it rather than a college class.[1] The German word for it is waldsterben and there seem to be few English language resources about it.[3] My recollection is that monoculture forests promote forest death. Diversity is critical to a thriving forest. [1] Or both. I was an Environmental Resource Management major. [2] https:…

"My recollection is that monoculture forests promote forest death."

Quite, and I'll venture that any form of monoculture is generally in an unhealthy state or will eventually cease to function. At best it will be sub-optimal. Diversity must be encouraged.

Whether you look at woods/forests, dogs, people, entire ecosystems, gut bacteria or whatever, you generally see rude health associated with diversity.

English is of course a (somewhat) Germanic language but as far as I know we don't even have a concept of forest-death or anything like it. We'd probably go for something like "dying-forest syndrome" instead. Actually, we'd probably call it something really stupid and contentious like: "German forest disease" or similar nonsense and then rapidly give it a Greek and Latin combo name when the sheer racism of the original name is called out.

Anyway, I recall wandering the forest near to this (1983ish): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermannsdenkmal My Dad was a British Army Officer and he very carefully got us lost via a complex "contouring" maneuver. We escaped eventually but it is said that to get properly lost involves a British Occifer and a map. Give them a compass and you are totally doomed!

Errr, anyway, we are wandering through the woods at Herman's Denk. Lots of trees and a lot of species seen. The woods looked and felt healthy. Any decent sized wood is a pleasant place for good reason - that's where we (humans) should be. We are a species of tree huggers 8)

My company owns a bit of land and we have three huge oaks (40' plus height, at least eight foot girth) on it. I will eventually kick my local council into bestowing "tree preservation orders" (TPO) on them because allowing harm to them will we environmental vandalism.

Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing like a state is a terrific book. It's possible that I learned the idea of forest death from it rather than a college class.[1] The German word for it is waldsterben and there seem to be few English language resources about it.[3] My recollection is that monoculture forests promote forest death. Diversity is critical to a thriving forest. [1] Or both. I was an Environmental Resource Management major. [2] https:…

"My recollection is that monoculture forests promote forest death." Quite, and I'll venture that any form of monoculture is generally in an unhealthy state or will eventually cease to function. At best it will be sub-optimal. Diversity must be encouraged. Whether you look at woods/forests, dogs, people, entire ecosystems, gut bacteria or whatever, you generally see rude health associated with diversity. English is of…

The concept does come from Germany but there is now an English term for it: "forest dieback" (although "waldsterben" can be used as a loanword as well.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_dieback

Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#106

The Miyawaki method [1], which I'm sure has been on HN before, is a very different approach to these projects. When I first read about it, it seemed like a kind of too-good-to-be-true miracle approach, but reading further it's really just a lot of hard work. Site preparation is a huge part of it. This photo gallery [2] gives some sense. It starts with soil testing and soil amendment, I doubt they ever consider the so…

The Miyawaki model is incredibly labor intensive and requires far more sophistication in monitoring and planting methods than developing countries are usually willing to commit to mass planting projects. 90%+ of these mass planting "1 million trees in 30 seconds" projects is usually little more than putting sticks in the ground, hoping some of them make it, with little regard for survivability, usefulness, tree speci…

It seems like some of the most successful reforestation projects are driven by a few very committed individuals who live on the land and want to see the forest return. Like the case of India's "Forest Man" https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2017/12/26/572421590/...

Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, LA has a program to give away trees for planting in yards and parkways, and my read of the program is that, while it's goal is laudable, the implementation is lacking. earlier this year, a partner non-profit planted 2 trees for us and i planted an additional 2 trees that another org gave us, and i learned that it's not a set-it-and-forget-it type of endeavor. walking around my neighborhood, many of these trees,…

In Seattle, we have a similar program. The tree comes with a donut-shaped water bag for twice weekly watering during the dry summer, and instructions for tree care for those first 5 years. The main takeaways I got were: don't bury the trunk (the top of the root system should just barely be above the dirt line) and amend the tree maybe once a year with coarse wood or bark mulch, leaving a couple inches of space around…

that's good to hear. hopefully watering regularly and remulching will lead to big beautiful trees here as well!

Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#108
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have plenty of incentive to keep the trees in my own yard from dying, yet I lack the expertise. So they die. I need an arborist. Unfortunately the arborists in my town are incentivized to get me to pay their company to cut my trees down and replace them with new ones every 10-15 years or so. We really just need more foresters, with a broader mission that extends beyond simply government-owned park land, who can hel…

>I have plenty of incentive to keep the trees in my own yard from dying, yet I lack the expertise. So they die. I need an arborist. I don't mean to be rude, but how brown is your green thumb? I get killing house plants, but killing a tree growing outdoors seems like something you'd actively have to do. The most common "mistake" I've seen are lack of care with lawn equipment like weed whackers. Are they just not being…

I suspect the developer selected trees not for their suitability to the environment, but rather for their appearance in order to sell more houses. Perhaps if I knew more I could make them live but that didn't happen. So as they die and I replace them, I ask for trees that are native to the area so they can survive on their own. These new trees are still alive, but this situation has happened to most of the trees in the neighborhood, not just mine. Many people don't bother replacing trees at all so they just never get replaced. So my idea is that the government should encourage builders to plant trees that are native, and make sure the expertise is available to recommend better trees that builders could plant in an area that would survive and are better for the environment.

In Florida, builders understandably plant a lot of palm trees. But the palm trees they plant aren't native to Florida. Palm trees grow wild in Florida, but they don't plant these because maybe they're not pretty enough or they produce fruit which attracts wildlife, so instead we get palm trees from Australia or other places. It's really insane.

Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#109
post #46

> Not surprisingly, those locals often reacted badly. For example, in northern Malawi, they broke fences and burned a growing forest to get back the common grazing land on which the trees had been planted. In two Nigerian projects, villagers cut all the planted non-fruit trees for firewood, while protecting those that bore fruit. Recommended reading: "Seeing Like A State" by James Scott. The first section on Scientif…

Thats the problem with all these projects though, they are situation brittle, depending on a situation not changing for the worse and a constant economic drip keeping them alive. The actual solution would be to saturate humans need for firewood and material - by drone planting the only plant that could keep up, survive and thrive, with it - Variations of genetically modified Bamboo.The past is gone, it cant be restor…

> drone planting... Variations of genetically modified Bamboo

In many places "naturally evolved" bamboo varietals outcompete most vegetation to the extent where many people want to eradicate the bamboo

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