Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Nikola founder Trevor Milton found guilty of fraud

cnbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 110 posts

Re: Nikola founder Trevor Milton found guilty of fraud

#101

Post by sarchertech »

phpthrowaway99 wrote: post #79
sarchertech wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well he settled Securities Fraud charges, so it stands to reason there was likely securities fraud. He also had to step down as chairman, appoint 2 new independent directors, and appoint an independent board to oversee his public communications. If you paid a drug smuggling fine and as part of the process admitted to smuggling drugs, I might be inclined to label you a drug smuggler as well.

I wouldn't say he settle what I consider "securities fraud" even if that's the technical label, just like I wouldn't say someone that got a speeding ticket violated "federal interstate travel statues" by speeding on I5.

But that’s just what securities fraud is though, it’s a very technical violation.

The didn’t violate federal interstate travel statutes because a speeding ticket is a local violation.

If you said someone who got a speeding ticket violated interstate travel statutes, then sure that fits exactly what they did.

Re: Nikola founder Trevor Milton found guilty of fraud

#102

Post by sarchertech »

voakbasda wrote: post #89
sarchertech wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well he settled Securities Fraud charges, so it stands to reason there was likely securities fraud. He also had to step down as chairman, appoint 2 new independent directors, and appoint an independent board to oversee his public communications. If you paid a drug smuggling fine and as part of the process admitted to smuggling drugs, I might be inclined to label you a drug smuggler as well.

It is often cheaper to pay the fine than to fight it. A settlement is positively not an indicator of guilt. In the US, over 90% of cases settle. Do you really think that they are all guilty, or maybe some of them are railroaded by the system and coerced to plea? Let me answer that for you. Lots of innocent people plead to charges that they probably could beat, but the system has been corrupted beyond any reasonable h…

Sure he might be innocent, but it’s not likely. You really think the world’s richest man has no reasonable hope of a fair trial.

Most people plead because they are either guilty or because they can’t afford to compete with the resources of the prosecution. That’s not the case for Elon.

Re: Nikola founder Trevor Milton found guilty of fraud

#104

Post by fastball »

IshKebab wrote: post #83
0xy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We think we can do self driving in a year" (very unrealistic prediction) versus "we have a working truck prototype" (literally false). Being an optimist isn't fraud.

True, but I would say pre-selling FSD for years in the full knowledge that they wouldn't be able to deliver is is fraud.

FSD doesn't work until it does. How does anyone have "full knowledge" that they won't be able to deliver? One breakthrough and you're done.

Tesla is taking the money people are paying them for FSD and using it to... build an FSD system. They are hiring top talent, developing new ML architectures, developing new training hardware, developing new inference hardware, and overall just spending more money on the problem than any other company.

Having a hard time understanding how spending people's money on the thing you say you're spending it on is "fraud".

Re: Nikola founder Trevor Milton found guilty of fraud

#105

Post by fastball »

rvz wrote: post #36
0xy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We think we can do self driving in a year" (very unrealistic prediction) versus "we have a working truck prototype" (literally false). Being an optimist isn't fraud.

So why did he pay for the fraud charges against him then for his misleading tweets? [0] > Musk and Tesla have agreed to settle the charges against them without admitting or denying the SEC’s allegations. He knew he committed securities fraud, and now he is under federal investigation over the Twitter deal. There is no need to be a Elon apologist, since everyone knows he is a fraudster. That is before I mentioned abou…

Because the SEC has the power to prevent him from running publicly traded companies, so he settled rather than risk that.

Re: Nikola founder Trevor Milton found guilty of fraud

#106

Post by IshKebab »

fastball wrote: post #104
IshKebab wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but I would say pre-selling FSD for years in the full knowledge that they wouldn't be able to deliver is is fraud.

FSD doesn't work until it does. How does anyone have "full knowledge" that they won't be able to deliver? One breakthrough and you're done. Tesla is taking the money people are paying them for FSD and using it to... build an FSD system. They are hiring top talent, developing new ML architectures, developing new training hardware, developing new inference hardware, and overall just spending more money on the problem t…

> How does anyone have "full knowledge" that they won't be able to deliver?

By talking to experts? Or even people just vaguely familiar with the field. It was obvious at the time that it would take far far longer than most driverless car companies and the press were saying.

Frankly you don't even need any engineering knowledge to see that. Just go for a drive. There are countless situations that basically require human-level intelligence and nobody would have believed Musk saying he was a year away from that.

Re: Nikola founder Trevor Milton found guilty of fraud

#107

Post by voakbasda »

sarchertech wrote: post #102
voakbasda wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is often cheaper to pay the fine than to fight it. A settlement is positively not an indicator of guilt. In the US, over 90% of cases settle. Do you really think that they are all guilty, or maybe some of them are railroaded by the system and coerced to plea? Let me answer that for you. Lots of innocent people plead to charges that they probably could beat, but the system has been corrupted beyond any reasonable h…

Sure he might be innocent, but it’s not likely. You really think the world’s richest man has no reasonable hope of a fair trial. Most people plead because they are either guilty or because they can’t afford to compete with the resources of the prosecution. That’s not the case for Elon.

I am saying that no one has a decent chance of a fair trial.

People plead guilty all the time when they are innocent and can fight. They see that the system is rigged and bow out to limit its damage to their lives.

Re: Nikola founder Trevor Milton found guilty of fraud

#108

Post by sarchertech »

voakbasda wrote: post #107
sarchertech wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure he might be innocent, but it’s not likely. You really think the world’s richest man has no reasonable hope of a fair trial. Most people plead because they are either guilty or because they can’t afford to compete with the resources of the prosecution. That’s not the case for Elon.

I am saying that no one has a decent chance of a fair trial. People plead guilty all the time when they are innocent and can fight. They see that the system is rigged and bow out to limit its damage to their lives.

You think a man with unlimited resources can’t get a fair trial? There are serious structural problems with our legal system, but almost none of them apply to billionaires.

Elon can afford the best lawyers in the world, and unlimited expert witnesses to tell his side of the story. The prosecution has almost none of their usual advantages against a billionaire.

Re: Nikola founder Trevor Milton found guilty of fraud

#109

Post by rvz »

dang wrote: post #100
rvz wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Would you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN? We've had to ask you this more than once before. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. Perhaps you don't owe $celebrity better, but you owe this community better if you're participating in it. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and post in the intended spirit, we'd appreciate it.

Someone has already evidently asked "I'll bite, How so?" and I gave them the link to the SEC settlement: [0] of the fraud charges which satisfies and effectively substantiates the claim a day before you commented.

Even when the parent commenter mentioned about Trevor saying "I can out Elon, Elon" I only said that he is right as Elon Musk is also a fraudster with the fraud charges he paid for after violating securities laws which is 100% true.

So hardly flamebait, and 'unsubstantive'.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33213443

Re: Nikola founder Trevor Milton found guilty of fraud

#110

Post by dang »

rvz wrote: post #109
dang wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN? We've had to ask you this more than once before. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. Perhaps you don't owe $celebrity better, but you owe this community better if you're participating in it. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and post in the intended spirit, we'd appreciate it.

Someone has already evidently asked "I'll bite, How so?" and I gave them the link to the SEC settlement: [0] of the fraud charges which satisfies and effectively substantiates the claim a day before you commented. Even when the parent commenter mentioned about Trevor saying "I can out Elon, Elon" I only said that he is right as Elon Musk is also a fraudster with the fraud charges he paid for after violating securitie…

Your GP comment was denunciatory and information-free. That makes for unsubstantive flamebait, especially when the topic is a sensational one.
Post reply on HN