Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#101

Post by calibraxis » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 10:43 AM UTC

coffeemug wrote: post #62

fleitz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even as a man negotiating can have preprocussions, I've had my access to sales data revoked (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when you put dev milestones next to sales increases), been accused of blackmail (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when they offer you a vacation and you ask for a raise), accused of lowering employee moral (thanks for turning down my request for a raise, I decided to become a team player and…

I run a startup, so I'm on the other side of the fence, but to me it sounds like you've encountered repercussions because of your attitude. As a founder, I love when people ask questions, do their legal diligence, specify their compensation requirements up front so no one's time is wasted, ask about market challenges, and yes, even negotiate for a fair compensation if I haven't been paying attention and it turns out…

I've met my fair share of founder jerks. Whether or not you and I are jerks is immaterial to the fact that when haggling over money, each side is in an antagonistic relationship. Each is rewarded for extracting virtually as much as they can from the other. (Personally, I think it's an absurd system.)

And I don't know about you, but I do know a gal who CAN "program her way out of a for loop" — I've seen her do it, such females actually exist — and if you're a decent listener, they may do you the favor of telling you about the extra crap they face due to men's kooky gender ideologies.

Anyway that said, I agree you can hack somewhat better pay out of a manager by handling them properly. Much of their professional world is social, so they are extra-sensitive to social cues. And software developers at this moment have far stronger bargaining positions than many other workers.

Among the advice that helped me (but YMMV):

* Reading _Getting to Yes_. There are alternatives to domination and passivity.

* Asking more than their highest range — if they negotiate me down, I did something right.

* Building my bargaining position by: increasing my relevant knowledge/ability, being a good presenter and listener/talker, overkilling the technical puzzles which you can do at home, and being able to walk away from a given deal.

AI prof Patrick Winston has helpful tips on giving presentations: (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9F536001A3C605FC)

* Note that the initial hiring decision is when the market transaction is made. If you get it right, having brought your forces to bear on it, it's out of the way. (David Graber's _Debt: The First 5000 Years_ has some interesting words on this phenomenon.)

Of course, the goal depends on whether you're negotiating with a wealthy firm, a cash-strapped startup, or a social justice organization.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#102

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 10:43 AM UTC

davedx wrote: post #100

chc wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outright accusing people of sexism absolutely will make them shut off to you. So will accusing them of puppy-kicking and any number of other things where they don't want to think of themselves as That Kind Of Person (even if they really do act that way sometimes) — but sexism is particularly volatile because there's an implicit threat of a lawsuit on top of the moral judgment. It's one of those things where, if someb…

I can't believe someone is being told to read 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' because they called someone out about being sexist. She is not the one who needs to change!

[deleted]

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#103

Post by Tichy » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 10:45 AM UTC

No link to the study?

And isn't it a no-brainer that people might prefer working with people who don't make demands?

I suspect if you were to run an experiment with people being offered jobs, you'd find that more people got the job who didn't negotiate than who did negotiate. After all, a fraction of the ones who negotiate might have made unreasonable demands.

And sorry, but stuff like the "men don't let me speak in a discussion" just annoy me, because men actually face the same problem. There are simply people whose tactic in discussion rounds is to not let the other participants speak. I doubt that is a man thing.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#104

Post by Tichy » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 11:01 AM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #36

po wrote: post #31

What I like about this article is that it's not trying to point blame. It's not that men are actively trying to shut out women or making a hostile environment (although some probably are), it's that they do it in subtle ways without even noticing. It's not that women are too timid, it's that they are making the optimal short-term choice. I'm reminded of a study I read a looong time back (sorry I don't remember where)…

McArdle has also written about this kind of stuff before: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2008/06/yes-soci... ; http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2008/06/a-pack-n... : I've had about ten requests from men to explain the phrase "winning the cocktail party". None from women. A male friend, who spends a not inconsiderable time cruising feminist sites, was one of those who asked what it meant. I fin…

"women gain status by submerging themselves into it--by strengthening the group, often at the expense of themselves."

Sorry, but that is complete bullshit. I have seen power struggles in female groups often enough.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#105

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 11:06 AM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #104

jseliger wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

McArdle has also written about this kind of stuff before: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2008/06/yes-soci... ; http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2008/06/a-pack-n... : I've had about ten requests from men to explain the phrase "winning the cocktail party". None from women. A male friend, who spends a not inconsiderable time cruising feminist sites, was one of those who asked what it meant. I fin…

"women gain status by submerging themselves into it--by strengthening the group, often at the expense of themselves." Sorry, but that is complete bullshit. I have seen power struggles in female groups often enough.

[deleted]

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#106

Post by forgetaboutit » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 11:32 AM UTC

Reading the comments here it people here seem to be unaware that there is such a thing as male privilege. If you were talking about different behaviors such as bullying would you really bring up biological truisms that justify the bullies behavior or would you talk about the culture that enables this behavior?

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#107

Post by JonnieCache » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 11:34 AM UTC

sakura_k wrote: post #63

Interesting to see how many comments cite supposedly immutable male sexual dynamics as the cause of this phenomenon - like being unable to respond non-erotically to an assertive woman, or even to a woman who is simply friendly at work. Could you ever imagine a woman's sexuality being invoked as a matter-of-fact justification for a workplace dynamic? Not by a man saying a woman's wonton behavior made him act aggressiv…

I agree with you, but I also think that there may be a case that male sexual (and more general) cognition/behaviour actually is less mutable than that of women, and that this might actually be one of the key gender differences. A meta-difference if you will.

Not saying that this is true, just that I am willing to entertain the possibility.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#108

Post by chegra » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 11:37 AM UTC

Mz wrote: post #96

chegra wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I have found is that a given set of people in the larger population[for a particular system] will like you, just random probability. What you effectively have to do is to social proof yourself, ie make it seem to others that it is okay for you to be aggressive. What this means is not trying to appease the people that don't like you or even talking to them, until you have them over on your side you basically igno…

I have decided I have "star quality". And it's not something the big bureaucracy I work for is likely to tolerate well. I need to find a way to cash in on that. Historically, it's gotten me attention at times like a "star" but no money. I've had fan emails at times and gotten big fan-like reactions in some forums/email lists and one of my emails was quoted in a book (after being heavily edited down from 2000+ words t…

lol, In this case, what you will need to do is find a burning building and save it. Look for a project that has high rewards that no one wants to touch or can touch but you can make a difference.

For instance, you overheard someone higher up mention a problem that they have difficulty solving. They indicate somehow they don't know xyz, and you know a little xyz. Tell them you can solve it and how much you expect in return[Don't solve it for free]. It is easier to get notice that way.

It is something like how you see products on TV for solving people weight problems. Sometimes the building is so on fire that people are willing to try anything, and in your case if you can actually solve it - they will be exceptionally thankful.

The hard part is asking for a reward in return.

[Puts away my playbook.]

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#109

Post by bobbles » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 11:37 AM UTC

wtracy wrote: post #29

A question that I'm surprised hasn't been asked yet: Is this really universal, or is this cultural?

Ive noticed after working in the UK (from Aus) that people generally tend to speak over the top of each other, just in order to carry on in the conversation. Back in Aus there tends to be a bit more of a tendancy to let someone finish talking before they start.

Of course this could be entirely the two workplaces and not related to cultural differences by location.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#110

Post by Mz » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 11:43 AM UTC

sakura_k wrote: post #63

Interesting to see how many comments cite supposedly immutable male sexual dynamics as the cause of this phenomenon - like being unable to respond non-erotically to an assertive woman, or even to a woman who is simply friendly at work. Could you ever imagine a woman's sexuality being invoked as a matter-of-fact justification for a workplace dynamic? Not by a man saying a woman's wonton behavior made him act aggressiv…

Interesting to see how many comments cite supposedly immutable male sexual dynamics as the cause of this phenomenon - like being unable to respond non-erotically to an assertive woman, or even to a woman who is simply friendly at work.

I don't actually see any reason to assume it runs one way. The (male) song "I didn't mean to turn you on" comes to mind.