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Harrison Bergeron (1961)

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Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#101

Post by falcolas »

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #82
falcolas wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everything related to learning requires perfect efficiency. Fiction is a fantastic way to take dry principles and make them relatable. Read those wikipedia articles and Harrison Bergeron if you really want to get the most out of those factual articles and fictional story. To put it another way, productivity is not - nor should it be - the milestone by which we evaluate our lives.

That's not what I meant to say. Actually I searched for words, thought about 'informative', 'enlightening', other rephrasing, but been lazy. I like (some) fiction too. But all the discussions about this short story seem to remain fuzzy, coming to no real conclusions, not pointing to the core. Because, hey, fiction, so what? That is detrimental, I think. And because of that, I've put it that way.

> That is detrimental, I think.

Not at all. Different people will take away different lessons and meanings, because they're thinking about what the story means given their own experiences. And as they grow as people, the things they take away will change.

Thinking about the principles linked above - how those principles apply to the story and to our own lives - is much more valuable to a person than purely memorizing these principles.

What's even better is that a lot of folks will take away things that the author didn't even think of - perhaps couldn't think of given the time frame of the writing. Simply viewing it at a time that has a different framework of morality than was present back in the 1960's can give us a whole different perspective.

Thinking is good. Coming to different conclusions while still being able to discuss them with others is even better.

EDIT: A concrete example. I noted in a different thread about how I identify with George Bergeron due to my ADHD. Vonnegut is unlikely to have written George in such a way intentionally, nor is it one of the central themes of the story, and yet I'm able to use it to help others understand how my brain works; I can give them a relatable portrayal of a person's mental experience.

That's something you won't get by reading a Wikipedia article about Crab Mentality - by simply reading about the themes of a story.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#102

Post by geysersam »

kikokikokiko wrote: post #74
josephcsible wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been school districts lately that have been getting rid of advanced math classes in the name of equality.

Brazilian guy here. In Brazil, state of Sao Paulo, some years ago the government wanted to implement a gifted students program, and it was DEFINITELY shut down for "politically correct" reasons, no "cutting costs" involved. But anyways, Brazil is not known worldwide as a smart celebrating country. Carnaval celebrates asses, not brains.

There's a difference between not providing extra resources to educate "gifted" students, and spending effort actively inhibiting their development. I feel what you describe falls in the first category, while the situation in the story falls in the second.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#104

Post by LanceH »

snarkerson wrote: post #89

The enforced equality of outcome is extended into the extreme. So is it of value when not in the extreme?

Bringing people down for the sake of equality? Depends.

Bring in more tax money from the rich and build a safety net...that's pretty popular.

Don't allow a student advanced math classes because he'll get ahead of his peers. Unfortunately this is actually being pursued.

Title IX in the US might be used for either side of the argument. Everyone should have equal access in education -- positive. We need to get rid of men's soccer so we can balance the scholarship numbers (bad for men's soccer players). No idea why we can't balance football scholarships with academic/art/engineering/architecture/whatever scholarships.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#105

Post by davidw »

Parmenidea wrote: post #17

My hot take is that this story is highly overrated. It’s boring, poorly written, and lacks nuance. The reason people remember it fondly is (1) everyone loves Vonnegut because he’s funny, so they don’t want to criticize it and (2) everyone read this story in middle school and are blinded by nostalgia.

I had to read it in high school, and hated it for those reasons as well as just being a pretty literal minded person. My mind is wired such that I would much rather read an opinion piece stating your actual opinion rather than some lame bit of allegory where the actual story and characters are weak and the whole thing is about Conveying The Author's Message. And that message tends to be some extreme version of something with no nuance or real debate.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#106

Post by jasonhansel »

I've always seen this story, less as a parable about our treatment of the disabled (or the gifted), and more as a lesson about envy. It shows what happens when you try to eliminate envy from society by bringing everyone to the same level, so that nobody has any "unfair" advantages.

edit: I think the telling line is:

> their faces were masked, so that no one, seeing a free and graceful gesture or a pretty face, would feel like something the cat drug in

The point isn't to make people equal for the sake of an abstract egalitarian principle, the point is to stop anyone from feeling envious.

edit 2: There is one obvious problem with this attempt to prevent envy. When you handicap someone, if the handicaps are visible, you can still tell by looking at the handicaps who has the greatest talent, as happens in the story. A more dystopian version would make the handicaps invisible.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#108

Post by scandox »

mpettitt wrote: post #65
StrictDabbler wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is baffling that Bradbury was able to write The Murderer in 1953. The transistor was invented in 1947 and the first fully transistorized radio wasn't available until a year after Bradbury published this, but he got all the way through predicting ringtones, smartwatches, housing automation, GPS digital dispatch/gig economy jobs, and smarmy digital assistants in the span of a single story. I am not aware of a more p…

Ever read "The Machine Stops" by EM Forster? Over 100 years old, and it's got Facebook style interactions!

Yes and video calls that are "good enough".

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#109

Post by bnralt »

josephcsible wrote: post #46
geysersam wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I've always felt the story to be a bit of a straw man. Don't we always celebrate and idolize ability, beauty etc?

There have been school districts lately that have been getting rid of advanced math classes in the name of equality.

Story from a local school:

Parents of the more advanced math students in the grade requested some sort of more advanced math opportunities for their kids. School didn't provide any. When several of the kids used a more advanced math concept they had learned outside of school to solve a problem, the teacher told them to not do it that way because they hadn't learned it yet.

The school does provide extra classes for kids who they think are behind in one area or another. And if a kid has a lot of issues, a class will even get an extra teacher that just focuses on that kid.

Children who perform below grade level or have issues are getting extra attention from the school (great), but children who already know what's being taught are expected to just sit there quietly and waste their time (not so great).

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#110

Post by at_a_remove »

superb-owl wrote: post #8

This story is typically seen as a critique of socialism, but it's more likely that Vonnegut intended it as a critique of critiques of socialism [1]. Vonnegut himself was a socialist [2], and the absurdist tone of the story reinforces this idea. [1] https://s3.amazonaws.com/arena-attachments/197545/03882696bf... [2] https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/04/kurt-vonneguts-socialism-fr...

If it is a critique of critiques of socialism, if it is mocking "right-wing fantasies," then how unfortunate for the story when they come true.
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