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How sustainable are fake meats?

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Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#101

Post by Swizec »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #50
Swizec wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the substitutes seem unnecessarily unhealthy As a meat eater, this has been my philosophy. If you’re gonna go vegetarian, just go for it. Vegeterian food is delicious and there’s so much choice! Entire cultures of amazing natively vegetarian foods with no need for weird meat substitutes. Personally, legumes don’t have the right macros. Neither do fake meats. Cottage cheese and greek yogurt make better meat substitu…

> As a meat eater, this has been my philosophy. If you’re gonna go vegetarian, just go for it. I never understood this meme. What exactly is the philosophy? A philosophy of how others should partake in a lifestyle that you don’t? It's odd enough to tell others what to prefer, but it's not clear what the impact of "As a meat eater" is supposed to have. "As a straight man, my philosophy is if you're gonna be gay, just…

It means that when I have a vegetarian meal, I don’t look for fake meat. I just have a dish that was designed to be vegetarian.

The “as a meat eater” part signifies that I’m not vegetarian which seems like an important distinction in this context.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#102

Post by schnevets »

spywaregorilla wrote: post #95
silicon2401 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My wife is pescatarian Not a judgment on your wife, but sharing for general awareness: I would eat land animals before eating fish again. You can read Outlaw Ocean for a quick look at how awful the seafood industry is. The seafood industry has everything from slavery, abuse, animal population decimation, and more, which is directly supported by anyone who eats seafood: > Do you know if the fish on your plate is leg…

You'll find a lot of shit like this in many industries fwiw.

Yeah, I'm a firm believer in moderation and not allowing perfection to get in the way of progress. So many decisions can be seen as immoral once examined under heavy scrutiny and choosing to be "vegetarian" instead of just "eating meat on special occasions" has a profoundly different impact on relationships and daily life.

My entire argument above was basically that an invisible hand removing meat from everyday products will be a greater win for the environment than expecting a segment of consumers to go completely vegan.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#103

Post by reaperducer »

schnevets wrote: post #100
reaperducer wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My old boss gave me one of hers at lunch one day. I noticed instantly. But I'm still of a mind that if you want to promote vegetarianism, make vegetable recipes taste better; don't make the vegetables imitate something they're not.

I feel similarly, but when the thing being imitated is just breaded and fried "stuff" like a nugget, it seems like an inexpensive, tasty vegan filling should be simpler. Maybe the distinction is making a bite that is delicious, not necessarily something meat-like. If the nugget is good, you won't care if the filling is chicken, mozzarella, bean, or something else.

Yes. Exactly my point. Only better stated.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#104

Post by hitpointdrew »

drewg123 wrote: post #2

From the article: " even poorly produced plant-based meats are better, environmentally, than meat from well-raised livestock. "

This is patently false. There is a organization, hired by the company that makes these fake burgers, to measure their environmental impact. A holistic cattle farm then hired the exact same company to measure their environmental impact. The results show that the fake meat farms had a carbon footprint (I don’t remember how bad/large it was), but the holistic ranch was carbon negative. I am on my phone now, if I remember I will come back here and link to the studies. I also recommend watching Allen Savory’s Ted talk on this subject.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#105

Post by hitpointdrew »

bantunes wrote: post #3
drewg123 wrote: post #2

From the article: " even poorly produced plant-based meats are better, environmentally, than meat from well-raised livestock. "

I don't know why this is surprising. Option A: grow plants, eat plants. Option B: grow plants, breed animals, feed plants to animals, give animal antibiotics to survive breeding pens, give animal hormones to grow faster, slaughter animal, eat animal.

It’s surprising because it’s dead wrong. Watch Allen Savory’s Ted talk.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#106

Post by mattpallissard »

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #4

If you know much about agriculture, this question has an almost certain answer. The contrast of energy and resource expense between plants and animals is staggering, even if you’re comparing a less demanding animal like chicken. You can refrigerate, process, and ship many plants by sea, truck, and plane and they won’t catch up to animal foods. We’re also not seeing a clear economic picture in Canada and the USA becau…

I wouldn't say the `vast majority` are `filthy, torturous, destructive, and unethical`. While that is undoubtedly out there, is sizeable, and should be addressed; it's far from the vast majority. You have to remember that these are still people raising these animals and that most people aren't monsters. They feel compassion and often aren't given a fair shake. Even the calloused, hard-ass, old-timers get teary eyed in certain situations. Hell, a lot of them don't like going to the zoo for ethical reasons.

Source; grew up in a hog-raising family in big-ag country.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#107

Post by phillipcarter »

datpiff wrote: post #93
phillipcarter wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative we do is: * Order vegetarian when eating out. Non-western cuisines do incredible food that doesn't have any meat in it. * Only buy meat + eggs from a local farm that effectively does things "small batch". Their farm is open for visitors and you can see pigs and chickens that actually look happy . The pigs even run over to you when they smell you and you can see their cute little tails wigglin'. * Try…

>* Only buy meat + eggs from a local farm that effectively does things "small batch". Their farm is open for visitors and you can see pigs and chickens that actually look happy. The pigs even run over to you when they smell you and you can see their cute little tails wigglin'. I understand this as an ethical argument, but are you assuming any "small batch" operation is more sustainable?

I can't imagine it not being sustainable, no. Farms that grow all kinds of crops and raise many different kinds animals are sophisticated systems, and humans have learned over centuries how to best utilize them in ways that don't pollute rivers or emit incredible amounts of methane. The reason why they don't work in much of the modern world is because they don't optimize their output for maximum pounds of beef that gets ultimately sold to McDonald's, for example.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#108

Post by brnaftr361 »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #92
reaperducer wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My old boss gave me one of hers at lunch one day. I noticed instantly. But I'm still of a mind that if you want to promote vegetarianism, make vegetable recipes taste better; don't make the vegetables imitate something they're not.

Maybe the purpose of these foods isn't to promote vegetarianism. You're suggesting it's activism when it's just making a product for vegetarians who still enjoy the taste of meet from time to time.

I don't even think it's necessarily the taste of meat, but rather having something that is as widely compatible with recipes as what it is intended to replace.

For instance, some of these replacement items can't be boiled as one might in making a soup. It makes it difficult to complete a meal without refactoring the whole thing in some cases.

Plain meat is pretty... From what I recall typically doesn't have much taste without several additives like salt, butter, herbs typically marinated... You can do all that with the replacements, typically.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#109

Post by intrasight »

ben_w wrote: post #90
intrasight wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment was only about "fake meat"

Which I'm saying is no worse than the status quo by your own standard, and which is an improvement by the standards of those promoting them.

I very much agree that it's an improvement for all involved. But I'll still suggest to my friends who consume fake meats that they try just eating the fresh vegetable ingredients.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#110

Post by ben_w »

intrasight wrote: post #109
ben_w wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which I'm saying is no worse than the status quo by your own standard, and which is an improvement by the standards of those promoting them.

I very much agree that it's an improvement for all involved. But I'll still suggest to my friends who consume fake meats that they try just eating the fresh vegetable ingredients.

I suspect this will mainly annoy your friends rather than change their behaviour, though obviously I can't be sure of that from this side the screen.
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