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Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

apnews.com

101–110 of 247 posts

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#101
post #3

> prompting doctors and health workers to suggest the procedure to those who might not otherwise consider it. Please tell me there isn't a financial incentive behind this. The only thing worse than doctors suggesting opioids to those who might not otherwise consider it is doctors suggesting death to those who might not otherwise consider it.

There’s always a financial angle in most situations. After all, taking care of a really sick patient (or someone with a difficult condition) costs the state money. If you read the article there are sighs that this may have been a consideration in some cases they list.

Wow, that's completely correct. From the article:

"Roger Foley, who has a degenerative brain disorder and is hospitalized in London, Ontario, was so alarmed by staffers mentioning euthanasia that he began secretly recording some of their conversations.

"In one recording obtained by the AP, the hospital’s director of ethics told Foley that for him to remain in the hospital, it would cost “north of $1,500 a day.” Foley replied that mentioning fees felt like coercion and asked what plan there was for his long-term care.

"“Roger, this is not my show,” the ethicist responded. “My piece of this was to talk to you, (to see) if you had an interest in assisted dying.”

"Foley said he had never previously mentioned euthanasia. The hospital says there is no prohibition on staff raising the issue."

I'm shocked. For the benefit of the doubt, since the quote doesn't include broader context, it's possible that the information was relevant in some way independent of guilting the patient, or the ethicist was being unintentionally awkward.

But given the information presented in the article, it's not a good look for the hospital, which should be prioritizing patient outcomes far above cost savings.

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#102

I am very torn by these developments. A dozen plus years ago someone close to me had ALS, a horribly vile disease that to this day is a death sentence upon diagnosis. Think of a judge saying to you "you will serve two years of daily punishment each day worse than the previous after which you will die". Medical care is capable of sustaining life well beyond the capabilities of the body by itself. On the other hand, th…

> On the other hand, this should not be available to someone who has "hearing loss" Why? Should they jump off a bridge instead? > and is possibly not in a position to make good decisions. Who are you to tell?

He had a documented history of depression. By definition, he was not in sound mind, there is ample precedent of people suffering from depression, trying and failing to commit suicide, and later recovering and thanking those around them for saving them.

This idea that "one's mind is sovereign over their destiny" is unsustainable in practice. There are many versions of it floating around, for example related to gun control issues. You just can't create policies that ignore the reality that a large portion of people are not rational a large fraction of time.

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#103
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it now? Can you cite any examples?

The article is the example. There are massive systematic pressures on our healthcare system and the 'oldest' people who don't work or pay taxes are the big 'cost points'.

Eugenics was very popular among Progressives across western Europe as well as the US. Compulsive sterilization, certification of marriages to avoid unwanted breeding of undesirably character or deformity and worse were considered "the science" of the time, and a moral virtue among a fair few Christian sects as well. Fundamentalists and Catholics were among the few religious groups in the US who opposed it, and were ridiculed as ignorant.

The evils perpetrated in the death camps and elsewhere were nothing more than the logical end conclusion of eugenics in general.

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#105
post #9
post #3

> prompting doctors and health workers to suggest the procedure to those who might not otherwise consider it. Please tell me there isn't a financial incentive behind this. The only thing worse than doctors suggesting opioids to those who might not otherwise consider it is doctors suggesting death to those who might not otherwise consider it.

I have a very hard time believing that doctors will be suggesting euthanasia to patients who might not otherwise consider it. There is no financial incentive behind it on a personal level for doctors, given Canada's one-payer medical system, and euthanasia is counter to many doctors' interpretation of the Hypocratic oath. You could argue that on a system-level there is an incentive to encourage euthanasia, since it c…

I initially thought along the same lines from first principles, that there is no incentive for physicians to suggest euthanasia.

But in addition to the case from Foley quoted by another commenter, the article backs it up with another claim given by a named source: "Frazee cited the case of Candice Lewis, a 25-year-old woman who has cerebral palsy and spina bifida. Lewis’ mother, Sheila Elson, took her to an emergency room in Newfoundland five years ago. During her hospital stay, a doctor said Lewis was a candidate for euthanasia and that if her mother chose not to pursue it, that would be “selfish,” Elson told the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation."

So, it looks credible that it's happening in practice. I can only speculate as to why, but I revised my initial belief because it was hypothetical, after reading about the accounts that look objective.

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#106
post #94
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A baby that will certainly die at birth, or likely cause death to the mother, is one thing. A perfectly healthy baby 1 day before birth that is put to death is entirely different. There is nothing magical about birth that makes it OK to slit the throat of a healthy baby. As a thought experiment, imagine a healthy baby born premature 1 day early. Could you take a knife and stab it to death as it screams and cries? If…

That’s quite the straw man. Can you point to a case where that actually happened?

Infanticide was a completely normal part of life in almost all historical societies though usually by drowning or smothering because they’re quieter. Exceptions are the Egyptians, Jews, Christians and Moslems. The PRC felt the need to legislate against it specifically when they conquered the last of the RoC holdouts in China in 1949 so I don’t think we need to imagine infanticide.

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#107

Quoted post unavailable.

Not sure what's mediocre about euthanasia, but I'd be curious to read about your past writings on this tendency towards mediocrity.

I'm not the same user, but this HN thread from 2018 covers the "brain drain" of Canadian technical workers to the US due to much higher salaries: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16996420

The general idea is that the most talented Canadians leave the country. This argument has a lot of merit, but if you look at the right places, you can still find a lot of really high talent in the country (e.g. medical research, computer science research, and animation).

Re: Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

#109
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it now? Can you cite any examples?

The death of King George V comes to mind. He was very sick, but still alive. His doctor was worried that if he didn’t die fast enough, his death would be reported by tabloids, not the “respectable press.” So he was given a sedative against his will. His last words, “God damn you”, we’re shouted to the nurse injecting him. Then he was poisoned to death. And of course things went bad in Germany. “Euthanasia” was not a…

That is kind of horrifying, considering his family were not aware of this either, and neither was he consulted about it.
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