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School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

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Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#101
post #98
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not talking about use of the justice system-- we're talking about threatened use of the justice system. Which can still be OK, but one has to be very careful. People especially get into trouble using threats of a report to police to attempt to recover stolen property.

Why not threaten? I know where I live there is zero chance police will actually recover the property but I suppose some percent of the time the other person might not know that.

Because it's legally extortion. There have been a number of times where:

A. Business owner discovers an employee has stolen property.

B. Business owner demands return of the property or the owner will notify police.

C. Employee pays, and business owner is charged with extortion or is found civilly liable for extortion.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#102
post #101
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not threaten? I know where I live there is zero chance police will actually recover the property but I suppose some percent of the time the other person might not know that.

Because it's legally extortion. There have been a number of times where: A. Business owner discovers an employee has stolen property. B. Business owner demands return of the property or the owner will notify police. C. Employee pays, and business owner is charged with extortion or is found civilly liable for extortion.

Can you cite some of these cases?

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#103
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a difference between a victim receiving a threatening text and showing it to administration, and the school demanding to see random teenager’s phones to look for potential crimes. If they have a suspicion, get an actual investigative police detective involved.

Do you think the police are generally actually willing to investigate harassment between teens?

Do you think teachers trained to investigate and properly handle evidence? Because if they don’t, then the evidence isn’t admissible in court, or maybe they decide to kick out the wrong student on suspicions.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#104
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think the police are generally actually willing to investigate harassment between teens?

Do you think teachers trained to investigate and properly handle evidence? Because if they don’t, then the evidence isn’t admissible in court, or maybe they decide to kick out the wrong student on suspicions.

Every day, administrators already have to investigate occurrences at school and choose appropriate disciplinary paths forward.

Coursework in legal matters is part of educational leadership/administration programs and is a focus of professional development, in part because districts are incentivized to reduce litigation costs.

I share your apparent concern that districts, etc, screw up discipline often and unjust outcomes occur. However, doing nothing isn't an option, and I don't think punting more of school discipline to the police is likely to improve outcomes.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#105
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are. The Fourth Amendment still applies, but courts have chosen a slightly more permissive standard for school administrators than police officers in view of in loco parentis and the needs of the school environment. School officials can be representatives of the State in one moment and in loco parentis in the next. Operating as a chimera is not an appropriate or respectful way to deal with anyone, especially…

> It's telling that the principal use case of in loco parentis is schools - maybe it's time for that to end universally as it ended in higher education. You're not really proposing anything in its stead, though, as far as workable systems of schooling. Schools owe it to their charges to make it a safe place for students to be and learn: after all, they're legally compelled to be there and most parents do not have oth…

> You're not really proposing anything in its stead, though, as far as workable systems of schooling.

It's unreasonable to request that I propose a workable alternative in this context.

> I suspect you might have some views that the student should "tough it out" or "solve the problem themselves".

That's not an accurate assumption.

I'm sorry, but I'll have to leave it there. I hope you have a good week this week.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#106
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a key word. "My" As in not the student. MY phone. Whether or not they have it is no excuse. It is MY device. MY rights have been firmly established.

I believe the comment has been edited since I replied, but... in any case. > Whether or not they have it is no excuse. It is MY device. MY rights have been firmly established. If your student takes "your" backpack to school, and there's a reason to search it, the fact that it is "your" property will not affect things much. This is a highly dubious legal theory. Fourth amendment decisions about search of property on o…

The backpack is a different case - the contents of the backpack are clearly germaine to school property.

But that isn't true for a mobile device that contains none-school contents. Eg, does a student bringing their phone to school mean that a school can search their financial records through their mobile banking app? Digital diary? Electronic health records?

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#107
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they search my mobile device, they will deal with police and the court system. Whether the phone is in my posession or my kids is irrelevant.

As the document shows, many instances of schools searching students' mobile devices without a warrant have been shown to be constitutional in appellate courts.

So that isn't what the document says. Out of 5 cases, only two were constitutional. Both of those were allowed to confirm that a disallowed activity had happened during school.

Specifically in Mendoza vs Klein ISD (from the paper) we see that the continued search of the phone after confirmation of texting in class was ruled unconstitutional.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#108
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And yes, the vote for the president is not a raw popular vote. There is a level of indirection through another body that often does, but may not, yield the same result as a popular vote would. The Electoral College does, in fact, always reflect the popular vote: The popular votes of each respective state. Critics of the Electoral College fall flat and demonstrate their sheer ignorance because they keep trying to app…

> that weighs each state's political power appropriately Define "appropriately" in the context of Wyoming and California. Also explain what happens if only a single person votes for the same candidate in the 41 states and special districts wth the least EC representation,and 100% of the people in the remaining states vote for the other candidate. The Electoral College is a hugely flawed mechanism both in terms of ref…

>Define "appropriately" in the context of Wyoming and California.

Appropriately as defined by the Constitution:

* Each state gets Representatives allocated to them according to population, with a minimum of 1 Representative, for proportional representation in the Lower House.

* Each state gets two Senators, for equal representation in the Upper House.

The number of Representatives used to increase on a semi-regular basis as population nationwide increased, but it has now been set to 435 Representatives due to physical constraints of fitting so many Representatives in one room.

The Senate currently has 100 seats to account for the 50 states currently in the union; the seats will increase or decrease anytime the number of states change.

Washington, D.C.'s presence in the Electoral College is a special case. D.C. does not have any representation in neither Houses of Congress because it is not a state, but the EC represents D.C. voters by allocating to it the equivalent number of Senators and Representatives as the smallest state in the union.

This means that, ironically to your arguments, the Electoral College is more representative than Congress because D.C. voters are represented.

>Also explain what happens if only a single person votes for the same candidate in the 41 states and special districts wth the least EC representation,and 100% of the people in the remaining states vote for the other candidate.

If the 41 states plus D.C. have more EC votes than the remaining 9 states, then the winner is whoever garnered those votes. Remember, the President is elected by and represents the states as a collective; the President does not represent the people directly, the people are represented directly by their state's Governor.

A nationwide popular vote removes power from the states, because it means one state's people can unilaterally override the people of another state. The USA is a federation of states, so that is simply not acceptable. Each state is sovereign and each state's will must be represented, so far the best compromise has been re-using Congressional seat appropriations which is something all states agree to work with.

>The Electoral College is a hugely flawed mechanism both in terms of reflecting the will of the people vs the will of arbitrary land boundaries, and the actual division of "political power" due to forcing everything to round to the nearest integer and setting a (completely arbitrary) cap on the number of EC votes.

The Electoral College reflects the will of the people of a given state, because remember: A state's EC votes are determined by the state's popular vote. Just because it doesn't reflect your will ("nationwide popular vote") does not make the Electoral College a "hugely flawed" system. In fact, with regards to working in a country comprising a federation of states, it works marvelously at bringing every state's opinions together.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#109
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's telling that the principal use case of in loco parentis is schools - maybe it's time for that to end universally as it ended in higher education. You're not really proposing anything in its stead, though, as far as workable systems of schooling. Schools owe it to their charges to make it a safe place for students to be and learn: after all, they're legally compelled to be there and most parents do not have oth…

> You're not really proposing anything in its stead, though, as far as workable systems of schooling. It's unreasonable to request that I propose a workable alternative in this context. > I suspect you might have some views that the student should "tough it out" or "solve the problem themselves". That's not an accurate assumption. I'm sorry, but I'll have to leave it there. I hope you have a good week this week.

> It's unreasonable to request that I propose a workable alternative in this context.

A complaint that one thing is not good without sharing something more workable is troublesome. There's a bunch of other things people have said (students work it out; always involve the police; etc) that I don't think would work.

> I hope you have a good week this week.

Just frantically preparing a classroom here and thankful, that for the most part, these are issues I don't need to deal with.

You too.

Re: School demands search of text messaging, outside of school

#110
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the comment has been edited since I replied, but... in any case. > Whether or not they have it is no excuse. It is MY device. MY rights have been firmly established. If your student takes "your" backpack to school, and there's a reason to search it, the fact that it is "your" property will not affect things much. This is a highly dubious legal theory. Fourth amendment decisions about search of property on o…

The backpack is a different case - the contents of the backpack are clearly germaine to school property. But that isn't true for a mobile device that contains none-school contents. Eg, does a student bringing their phone to school mean that a school can search their financial records through their mobile banking app? Digital diary? Electronic health records?

> Eg, does a student bringing their phone to school mean that a school can search their financial records through their mobile banking app? Digital diary? Electronic health records?

The document that I have linked previously in this thread pretty clearly shows what circumstances have been judged appropriate to search from the outset, and where administrators have overstepped their bounds in continuing.

The specific case of social-media-outside-school-hours-but-relating-to-school is untested.

"• Assuming a search is justified, to avoid a constitutional violation, school officials must tailor the search to the specific circumstances that prompted the search. In other words, school officials cannot turn a justified search into a “fishing expedition” to discover evidence of wrongdoing. According to Mendoza v. Klein Independent School District (2011), “a continued search must be reasonable and related to the initial reason to search or to any additional ground uncovered during the initial search.”"

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