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I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

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Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#101

Post by bsder »

eevilspock wrote: post #18

History is written by the upper class, especially in past times when only the upper caste could read or write. Even if what the author says is true about medieval upper caste people (I don't doubt it), I have trouble believing that peasants could afford the cost and time required of regular bathing. Water didn't come easily unless you happened to live next to a river or have a well next to your house. We've all seen…

> Water didn't come easily unless you happened to live next to a river or have a well next to your house.

I'm pretty sure that "existence of village" almost always implies "next to a river" in Europe/Americas up until the 1800s. I'm trying to think of a notable exception and failing spectacularly. Long distance goods transport via roads basically didn't exist. Not being next to a river would be a horrible handicap in almost every way possible.

It's something that we take for granted in modern times, but Bret Deveraux (acoup.blog) talks about how if armies couldn't forage (water, wood, food, and fodder) an army simply couldn't go there. https://acoup.blog/2022/07/29/collections-logistics-how-did-...

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#102

Post by ziotom78 »

eevilspock wrote: post #18

History is written by the upper class, especially in past times when only the upper caste could read or write. Even if what the author says is true about medieval upper caste people (I don't doubt it), I have trouble believing that peasants could afford the cost and time required of regular bathing. Water didn't come easily unless you happened to live next to a river or have a well next to your house. We've all seen…

I am not a historian, but I reckon that in the Middle Ages, villages and towns were only built if a river was nearby.

In 1000 A.C. the estimated world population was ~200–300 million people, so it was probably easier than today to settle people near fresh water.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#103

Post by prox »

kumarvvr wrote: post #95
eru wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that India was and is a huge and diverse place. A unified India did not exist until fairly recently. Neither as a political entity nor as a culture one.

This is blatantly false. A western trope resounding forever. Culturally India was a unified entity for millenia. As in, perhaps not having a unified government, but having the same cultural and literary background throughout the region. Ancient texts like Ramayana and Mahabharata talk about various places and practices across the length and breadth of India, which are remarkably similar and have a unified core. The g…

Yeah, this is also what I gathered from speaking to people from India, and my own research. Brahmanism/ belief in the vedas was pretty widespread and sanskrit is with a few local exceptions the “Latin” of India. As far as I know there was relatively little iconoclasm as most follow up empires usually respected what came before. The exception might by in the deep south? Not sure. Ofcourse this changed somewhat with islamism and British rule. Those two things reformed a lot in the identities of people during time up till now.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#104

Post by gala8y »

It's interesting to note that, when water is really scarce, people can take care of themselves without water. Himba people, living nomad life on savannas of Namibia and Angola, practically do not use water for everyday hygiene. Shaving heads (men), making dreads with mud (women), oiling body with liquid butter with ochre pigment from soil. Additionally, women use herbs incense as anti-microbial and fragrance.

Added: As culi points out in another comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364340) "(...) ammonia oxidizing bacteria can oxidize our sweat and prevent us from stinking. AOBs are found in soils pretty much everywhere."

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#105

Post by kumarvvr »

fastball wrote: post #92
palmetieri2000 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I learned a lot from your replies to that individual, so thanks for the efforts even if the target recipient doesn't appreciate them.

He mostly seems to be making it up so I wouldn't assume you learned too much.

Sorry, making up what?

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#106

Post by kumarvvr »

prox wrote: post #96
eru wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that India was and is a huge and diverse place. A unified India did not exist until fairly recently. Neither as a political entity nor as a culture one.

Speaking to some people from India, and my own readings what combined their society was a couple of things : a deep connection to the traditions such as the vedas, sanskrit, gods, brahmanism. And even if there was divergence, it was usually with a deep respect for what had gone before. So surely while there was a lot of cultural divergence, there was also a lot of things that made it into the India we see today. Some…

True. There were a multitude of kings, queens and kingdoms across India, but the study and spread of the cultural and literary roots of India happened all across the sub-continent.

That is why, even today, the same chants used in temples in the north, are used in the south. The text, meanings, rituals, practices, etc, may have taken a regional flavor, but the essence is the same, the core is the same and the philosophical idea behind it is the same.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#107

Post by prox »

hutrdvnj wrote: post #93
culi wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's incredibly silly how tied we are to the idea that something was invented once and then spread. Soap is literally just a fatty acid salt with some phytochemicals that have antimicrobial properties (extremely easy to come by considering most secondary metabolites of plants are specifically produced to keep them from succumbing to bacterial/fungal degradation). Soap has probably been "invented" a million ti…

I used to think that the printing press has been invented once and then spread, how many times has the printing press with movable types been invented?

History does not repeat but it does rhyme. Afaik as I know, two people invented the press at the same time. Before people where using woodblocks to copy works. So basically the invention was : use metal instead of wood, make enough letters so you can press anything you want.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#108

Post by andrekandre »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #80
kumarvvr wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In ancient times, right until the attacks by Islamist marauders and "civilized" Britishers, none of what you have mentioned were an issue. Your statement reeks of colonialist attitudes of seeing natives of other lands as some sort of brutes and degenerates living in destitution in poverty. In India, Every village was in the vicinity of a water source. Every village had a temple, with a large pond. Massaging with oil…

>In ancient times, right until the attacks by Islamist marauders and "civilized" Britishers, none of what you have mentioned were an issue. My assumption, when applied to India, would be that it would be an issue for the untouchables caste? >If you are not aware, this was how most of the world lived. Lower class was the norm. We are now living in an age of disproportionate luxury. Even so it still seems unlikely that…

  > My assumption, when applied to India, would be that it would be an issue for the untouchables caste?
afaik untouchables as a concept was mostly enacted around (british) colonial rule (when they instituted the caste system we see even to today), so might not apply to the time period they are talking about...

(happy to be corrected on this if i misunderstand)

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#109

Post by kortilla »

kumarvvr wrote: post #88
justanorherhack wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was a cultural value to feed people outside of the home before yourself and food donation was a cultural promoted ideology then that means there were lots of people to feed..

I wouldn't characterize it as that. Population was low enough, compared to food production. Feeding people is a cultural norm in India, rooted in the scriptures that ones hunger should not be a cause for doing business. The highest ideal in Hinduism is "Sarve jana, sukhino bhavanthu" (All living things should be happy) The reverse logic in your statement is also pertinent, in that if there was a lot of feeding going…

> Indian norms and culture emphasizes on moving away from materialism and advocates for distribution of wealth. Greed is frowned upon and actively discouraged in a society. Wealthy are encouraged to perform rituals and festivals and distribute their wealth.

This is also a bog standard description of Christianity and a bunch of other religions. There isn’t anything special about India here.

> India is the only civilization in the world where there are written references to kings of large sections of the country, leaving aside all their pomp and glory and going off into forests for meditation and penance. Mind you, they were not failures or banished. They voluntarily gave up their luxuries in search of the ultimate meaning of life.

Bullshit. Just the history of England and France alone are packed full of wealthy and privileged people focusing their life on the pursuit of enlightenment (spiritual, artistic, and/or scientific) and giving up pre-arranged lives of power and wealth.

> That the ultimate goal of life is not wealth, but of discovering the true nature of ourselves, the true nature of this world, the illusion that it is, is emphasized in every aspect of life.

Again, this is standard guidance you’ll find in all of the major religions. One of the most common criticisms of materialists in America is how they are not following Christianity. Wealth and the eye of a needle, etc.

India was not special. It was just as poor as any other pre-industrialized nation. You’re just looking back on it with rose colored glasses because we haven’t internalized the misery of dying from simple infections, dysentery, famines from floods, etc.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#110

Post by firecall »

kumarvvr wrote: post #21
b112 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

In ancient times, right until the attacks by Islamist marauders and "civilized" Britishers, none of what you have mentioned were an issue. Your statement reeks of colonialist attitudes of seeing natives of other lands as some sort of brutes and degenerates living in destitution in poverty. In India, Every village was in the vicinity of a water source. Every village had a temple, with a large pond. Massaging with oil…

Thankyou! Great responses! :-)
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