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Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

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101–110 of 226 posts

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest I love their computer games archive, but it boggles my mind that it's allowed to exist.

Which is where the thinking that lead to this lawsuit begins. Almost all those games are abandonware and or over 20 years old. Normal copyright should not apply there.

Well the law is written that way, and I don't think it's completely unreasonable (at least to the life of the originator). Just seems like the IA have been bold as brass here.

Also, the term "abandonware" is hugely overused. There are tonnes of shareware premium versions on there where it's super easy to contact the creators. I've never failed to do so.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#102
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, what you call "rent seeking" others would call "return on investment". Which they've largely already enjoyed many times over. I have precisely zero sympathy for the poor widdle publishing corporations.

Using your same logic, I will single-handedly decide that all software companies (and the developers working there) have received enough compensation for their efforts, and demand all their services and code be made available for free. As long as you got one paycheck from those months of work, now I want it for free. /s

This is infact what companies currently do.

Your argument would make sense if developers got paid per run of their code, instead of only for new code they write.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#103
post #56
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems an especially dumb move because being sued was absolutely inevitable from the first announcement of this. Presumably, even if they are hoping to change law with the case - it’s putting up the rest of IA’s (almost irreplaceably invaluable) mission as a gamble on whatever chances they think they have here.

I hadn't considered this angle, and would love to be wrong, but haven't digital books been exempt from first sale doctrine for quite some time now? I thought this case law was well established.

I can't quote you law but my understanding is that first sale doctrine applies to physical things. So virtually lending a corresponding digital copy to a physical book seems a creative application of first sale doctrine--which may or may not be strictly legal but apparently the publishers weren't interested in pushing that.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#104
post #15
post #6

So...they didn't think the law should apply so they just decided to ignore it? What were they expecting? How can they possibly expect to win this lawsuit? I hate copyright with all my soul but this is just stupid. You can't just decide to take the law into your own hand. This is just a waste of money and effort.

The mission of preserving human culture is far more important than respecting rent-seeking copyright holders. At the end of the day, The Internet Archive has good intentions and is morally in the right. The time has come to consider changing the laws to allow for truly fair use, especially for physical items scanned to digital (e.g. books), old video games, and more. It's about selecting for the common good over the…

> The mission of preserving human culture is far more important than respecting rent-seeking copyright holders

Based on what? Rights-holders are able to make a living because of copyright protections, it makes no sense that your rhetoric raises up these cultural works as vital for preservation but simultaneously dismisses the creators as unworthy of being paid.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#105
post #3

They did a pretty dumb thing and that's me being a supporter. I really wished they had thought a little longer before pulling that particular stunt.

Exactly, they should have reached out to the closed public libraries and come to an agreement where they lent out digital copies 1:1 of copies owned by closed libraries. It would have been an incredible initiative that could have become sustainable well past the pandemic.

That would have delayed the project by months though when it was most needed.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mission of preserving human culture is far more important than respecting rent-seeking copyright holders That genuinely may be so, but "this law i broke shouldn't exist" is not an advisable legal defense. Also, what you call "rent seeking" others would call "return on investment". I do think there is a grey area here, "fair use" being one example, but i think summarily discounting distributors and publishers wh…

> That genuinely may be so, but "this law i broke shouldn't exist" is not an advisable legal defense. It actually happens more often than you might think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

Is there a jury here? It's copyright, not a murder.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#107
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mission of preserving human culture is far more important than respecting rent-seeking copyright holders. At the end of the day, The Internet Archive has good intentions and is morally in the right. The time has come to consider changing the laws to allow for truly fair use, especially for physical items scanned to digital (e.g. books), old video games, and more. It's about selecting for the common good over the…

> The mission of preserving human culture is far more important than respecting rent-seeking copyright holders That genuinely may be so, but "this law i broke shouldn't exist" is not an advisable legal defense. Also, what you call "rent seeking" others would call "return on investment". I do think there is a grey area here, "fair use" being one example, but i think summarily discounting distributors and publishers wh…

Maybe not "this law I broke shouldn't exist" on its own, but "this law I broke shouldn't exist according to the constitution of our country" or "this law I broke shouldn't exist because it conflicts with this other guaranteed legal protection" is a perfectly ordinary defense. It's one of the core functions of a functioning judicial system.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#108
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mission of preserving human culture is far more important than respecting rent-seeking copyright holders. At the end of the day, The Internet Archive has good intentions and is morally in the right. The time has come to consider changing the laws to allow for truly fair use, especially for physical items scanned to digital (e.g. books), old video games, and more. It's about selecting for the common good over the…

> The mission of preserving human culture is far more important than respecting rent-seeking copyright holders That genuinely may be so, but "this law i broke shouldn't exist" is not an advisable legal defense. Also, what you call "rent seeking" others would call "return on investment". I do think there is a grey area here, "fair use" being one example, but i think summarily discounting distributors and publishers wh…

There are two ways to change the laws in America, through legislatures and with the courts.

The courts are the most efficient way to repeal something you don’t like. There are hundreds of legislators, you need teams of lobbyists to influence them, and there’s no guarantee that they will take up your issue in their agenda. Furthermore, if you want to change one thing, everything gets thrown on the table as being liable to change. You may win in one area but lose in a lot of others, and sometimes you will lose in non-obvious ways.

The judges don’t want to rock the boat as much as politicians do. If they make a decision that makes precedent, it will be very focused and very specific. But, if you want to take an issue up in the courts, you need to sue, or be sued. Courts are not hypothetical in the way that legislatures are.

I think fair use is a perfectly valid legal defense. Grey area is one way to put it, another way to put it is a legal area lacking precedent. If it were not for fair use, copyright law would violate your right to free speech. Fair use let’s you use copyrighted material for criticism, parody, and education. Covid created a situation where people’s access to works was restricted, with the only reason being legal limitations (copyright law). IA sought to educate people irrespective of the limitation. I don’t know how IAs legal team is planning to defend their client, but fair use would provide a defense. This case could end up with a precedent that says that under exceptional circumstances, the scope of what activities are covered under fair is expanded.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#109
post #55
post #6

So...they didn't think the law should apply so they just decided to ignore it? What were they expecting? How can they possibly expect to win this lawsuit? I hate copyright with all my soul but this is just stupid. You can't just decide to take the law into your own hand. This is just a waste of money and effort.

> You can't just decide to take the law into your own hand. See Uber, Lyft, AirBNB..... Just get big enough and buy enough politicians that it's not going to be a problem.

But the copyright holders own the politicians here, not the non profit.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#110
post #36

I agree with the Internet Archive on philosophical/ideological grounds and support their actions overall... _However_, they have to operate under the same BS everyone else does, so it seems naïve for them to take reckless actions that could put them in this position

> they have to operate under the same BS everyone else does

As a nonprofit and public archive/library they do have some special rights, which is why this isn't as clear cut as many think. These range from codified in law https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#108 to US Copyright Office decisions like https://www.copyright.gov/1201/2021/ and precedent.

If you did this you'd be sued into the ground and 100% lose. Now, I'm not saying the Archive will get away with what they did or that it was a good idea, just that there might be some non-obvious avenues.

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