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Is the United States Exceptional?

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Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#101

Post by palmetieri2000 »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #99
palmetieri2000 wrote: post #14

The logic of "The US is the greatest if you likes X things and bad if you prefer Y" is poor because it can be applied to anything. Colombia during Pablo Escobar's time was probably considered pretty great if you were a Narco Trafficker. The article entirely misses the problem non-US people have with the US faffing on about greatness or its exceptionality. Which is that individuals from the US seem to see this as an i…

Nice job compartmentalizing 330 million Americans into your tiny box. Contrast how awesome Australia is to America and I think you'll see similar amounts of faults as you portray Australians as model citizens of the world and Australia as peak civilization.

Australia has many flaws, some of them quite significant.

Note that I never say a single thing about Australia being perfect or model citizens, that is your fabrication which you interpreted as 'US Bad and Parochial, Australia Good". Very zero sum of you, which fits exactly into the type of personality I am talking about. Find as many flaws in Australia as you can, it wont offend me because unlike you I dont see my country as beyond reproach.

I did not invent American Exceptionalism, I did not write the article we are discussing, Americans are the ones who refer to their country as the best or greatest.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#102

Post by palmetieri2000 »

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #97
palmetieri2000 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Chin... Feel free to explore that and I'm certain you can dig up plenty more examples of fields in which Chinese scientists have worked on or released significant projects. I'm not going to get into an argument about the value of the innovations China has produced, although 'making stuff invented in the West cheaper' is hardly a disqualifier for counting as inno…

Well, what is it that you can point at around you and go "this would never have been possible without Chinese innovation"? Or French innovation for that matter, talking about recent stuff not centuries old cuisine? France has been making wine way longer than Napa, but California (while by no means a libertarian paradise) has lighter regulation on both wines themselves and labor to produce them. These days Californian…

> point at and go "this would never have been possible without Chinese innovation"?

Well first I linked you a whole wikipedia page full of them. Second, I would never ask that question because it is nonsense and any answer given can only be because of confirmation bias. Just because something WAS invented in the US does not mean it could have only been invented under those exact circumstances.

"Recently" is an arbitrary term you are throwing in there to be able to define the timeframe that suits you. If you really believe that the only things Russia has ever produced is "bad news" I think you could really get a lot out of exploring Russian art, literature, design, architecture and technology from any period you like between say 1900-present and I'm certain you will find something innovative.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#103

Post by cat_plus_plus »

palmetieri2000 wrote: post #102
cat_plus_plus wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what is it that you can point at around you and go "this would never have been possible without Chinese innovation"? Or French innovation for that matter, talking about recent stuff not centuries old cuisine? France has been making wine way longer than Napa, but California (while by no means a libertarian paradise) has lighter regulation on both wines themselves and labor to produce them. These days Californian…

> point at and go "this would never have been possible without Chinese innovation"? Well first I linked you a whole wikipedia page full of them. Second, I would never ask that question because it is nonsense and any answer given can only be because of confirmation bias. Just because something WAS invented in the US does not mean it could have only been invented under those exact circumstances. "Recently" is an arbitr…

How does a Wikipedia page improve my life and why do I have to dig into it rather than seeing these innovations around me first hand? As for Russia, remember you are talking to a Russian. Sure Pushkin was pretty good, in early 19th century. What good did you see coming out of Russia in 21st century, which we are almost a quarter into? Lots of things being invented in US suggest that US circumstances are pretty good for inventing and bringing inventions to mass use.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#104

Post by osigurdson »

jaqalopes wrote: post #67

All the facts here are fine but I'm left wondering, what are the stakes of "proving" how great America is? What good do all those aircraft carriers do me? Holding down the Chinese, I guess. But then, isn't holding the rest of the world down while the "American way of life" carries on the whole point of all this "greatness"? At the end of WWII, America was the last rich country standing and proceeded to go round the w…

I don't think any historical power (Assyrian, Persian, Roman, Mongolian, Japan and even Britain) can be compared to the modern US. Those were just different and far more brutal times across all of humanity. If the US had been even remotely like one of these powers at the end of WWII, they would have dominated the entire world as the only nuclear power. Yet, they choose not to do so and allowed their enemies to develop nuclear weapons on their own.

Stop beating yourselves up. The US has been an incredible force of good in the world for the most part - though not perfect of course. Russian, Iranian and Venezuelan governments on the other hand have been objectively horrible. I don't believe the "American way of life" is keeping anyone down other than those that wish to oppress others.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#105

Post by cat_plus_plus »

Hammershaft wrote: post #74
WalterBright wrote: post #16

A nation founded on the principles of all men being created equal, along with inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is indeed exceptional. The results have been exceptional, too. The US does indeed have plenty of problems, but those problems are usually traceable to neglecting those founding principles.

> A nation founded on the principles of all men being created equal, along with inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness Isn't the legacy of these 'founding principles' tarnished from the fact that many of the founding fathers owned hundreds of slaves? We are still within a living generation of segregation in southern states, an injustice that owes directly to how the founding fathers applied…

Not at all, slavery and near slavery conditions like serfdom was exceedingly common back then and neither African slave traders nor Native Americans saw anything wrong with it. In fact there are more slaves today than in any time in history. Just because founding fathers made significant advances to the status quo of society, doesn't mean that they should be held responsible for not solving all the problems in a single go. In fact, even if they wanted to free their personal slaves, the society was such that there may not have been a place for them to live in peace and earn to feed and clothe themselves. Don't take my word on it, read Thomas Sowell who has done extensive research on the subject and happens to be black himself.

Also, pretty absurd to blame founding fathers for segregation laws centuries later. People who made these laws were responsible for those laws.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/feb/25/modern-slavery-...

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#106

Post by cat_plus_plus »

osigurdson wrote: post #81
epolanski wrote: post #12

The biggest issue we Europeans have with the american exceptionalism are the implications on foreign politics. Victoria Nuland giving cookies at the Maidan square and appointing the post Yanukovich government? US can. Paying italian Mafia to kill socialist workers in Italy? US can. Having US drunk air force peoppe kill 30 civillians in Italy because they wanted to see how low they coukd fly and sending them back home…

What about WWII, do you wish the US would have stayed out of that?

Forget about WWII, does OP wish US would stay out of Europe now and leave superpower things to Russia?

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#107

Post by palmetieri2000 »

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #103
palmetieri2000 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> point at and go "this would never have been possible without Chinese innovation"? Well first I linked you a whole wikipedia page full of them. Second, I would never ask that question because it is nonsense and any answer given can only be because of confirmation bias. Just because something WAS invented in the US does not mean it could have only been invented under those exact circumstances. "Recently" is an arbitr…

How does a Wikipedia page improve my life and why do I have to dig into it rather than seeing these innovations around me first hand? As for Russia, remember you are talking to a Russian. Sure Pushkin was pretty good, in early 19th century. What good did you see coming out of Russia in 21st century, which we are almost a quarter into? Lots of things being invented in US suggest that US circumstances are pretty good f…

>How does a Wikipedia page improve my life and why do I have to dig into it rather than seeing these innovations around me first hand?

Might as well read: "why do I need research, evidence or information when I could just take anecdote and opinion?"

Because no one cares about your opinion and your anecdotes lead you to draw incorrect conclusions. You have countered precisely 0 of my points because you are conflating opinion with facts.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#108

Post by palmetieri2000 »

srvmshr wrote: post #55
mikkergp wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you measure that the US is the leader in innovation. US News says Japan: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/innovati... . World Intellectual Property Organization says Switzerland: https://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2021/article_0008... Bloomberg says South Korea: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-03/south-kor...

If you ask my personal opinion/ experience, I would factor 3 things 1. The presence of top research institutions across a wide spectrum of science & technology. 2. The footprint of this research in reputable publications & conferences. 3. The amount of capital investment to bring ideas to products. If we consider this practical yardstick - US is ahead by a fair margin to any other country.

Attributing all of this to the US simply because it occurs in the US is wrong and fails to acknowledge the contributions of other countries without which the innovations could not occur. How many top research institutions are staffed from people 100% US educated? My guess is none. How many US innovations occur without the input of other countries through educated individuals, resources or capital? Why isn't their contribution recognized and all credit given to the US?

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#109

Post by srvmshr »

palmetieri2000 wrote: post #108
srvmshr wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ask my personal opinion/ experience, I would factor 3 things 1. The presence of top research institutions across a wide spectrum of science & technology. 2. The footprint of this research in reputable publications & conferences. 3. The amount of capital investment to bring ideas to products. If we consider this practical yardstick - US is ahead by a fair margin to any other country.

Attributing all of this to the US simply because it occurs in the US is wrong and fails to acknowledge the contributions of other countries without which the innovations could not occur. How many top research institutions are staffed from people 100% US educated? My guess is none. How many US innovations occur without the input of other countries through educated individuals, resources or capital? Why isn't their con…

That unfortunately is the nature of credit assignment. US is a melting pot for different demographics & has conducive environment for attracting global talent with resources, opportunity & salaries. Any research funded & operated by them will be claimed by them - human resources aren't staked in claims. Research & capital resources are.

A better question to ask is why other countries (e.g. India, China Japan) aren't doing better to retain their talented scientists & engineers

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#110

Post by srvmshr »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #98
srvmshr wrote: post #11

US definitely has exceptional successes, but there are so many systemic flaws which other countries may or may not have, and where US could vastly improve. * High medical costs * Highest maternal mortality among developed countries * Highest income gaps * High education cost & the vicious circle of college debt. * Increasing trends of bankruptcy & paycheck-to-paycheck sustenance. * Lack of public transportation issue…

This reads like a sudden kick to a friend in the nads and then telling him "you're a pretty good guy". What is the point of a post like this? It's not balanced at all if your last statement is to be considered. If you don't like the country then just come out and own it.

My comment wasn't to wax on further to the original post. There are glaring issues which US faces & can improve vis-a-vis developed countries with similar quality of life. Its a bad idea to push deficiencies under the rug, pretend they don't exist & call it an 'exceptionally exceptional' country
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