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The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

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Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#101

Post by siva7 »

ido wrote: post #88
siva7 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think a dev is a code monkey then yes, it doesn’t matter if you hire someone from vietnam or seattle for your US business. If you’re actually looking for a software engineer then i have bad news for you: professional software development is all about communication (with customers, requirements engineers, other developers and so on). That’s why you are paying them ten times more, so they have a chance to unders…

So you’re saying the Dutch in the article shouldn’t complain that they earn less than Americans then?

The dutch isn’t earning ten times less than the average US developer. At best two times less, but that’s it (and FAANG salaries in US tech hubs are in no way representative for average US dev salaries)

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#102

Post by PragmaticPulp »

BossingAround wrote: post #92

Every time I see this article reposted, I feel a pang of sadness. It's this chasing of the SF salary outside of the US that is supposed to be the holy grail of every engineer in rich EU countries. Well, if you get hired by FAANG in Germany, you don't get the SF salary. My experience is that companies that do offer extreme salaries do not do so out of competition with FAANG (since FAANG does not compete with itself gl…

Unfortunately, I have to agree. The truth is that it’s entirely possible for some people to get SF FAANG level salaries while working in the EU, but those salaries are extremely rare. It’s not the same as SF or Seattle or NYC where there are numerous job opportunities and career paths that could lead to those salaries. Instead, they’re reserved for a select few high achievers who are uniquely talented and accomplished.

This article has caused a lot of consternation in one of the international forums I follow with a lot of younger people getting started in their EU tech careers because they can’t figure out why they’re unable to find compensation coming close to this anywhere.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#103

Post by yrgulation »

ido wrote: post #83
yrgulation wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the risk of sounding rude i am not even sure why austria is part of this debate as its totally irrelevant on the tech scene.

It’s simply a Westen European country I lived in, sorry I never lived and went to Uni + worked in the Netherlands to give a more topical example. My point was that borders are unfair in terms of compensation not just to Western Europeans but to a lot(most?) other people in the world outside [west coast/big city) Americans. And that true globalization will equalize things not only upward.

Well austria is firmly central european.

Dont worry, old tech will always tend to become cheaper. Once countries such as austria take the lead on new tech pay will follow. The us and uk have invested massively in modern technologies. Actually the uk started the trend with its industrial revolution and the us overtook it thanks to its size and dna engraved appetite for risk and innovation.

To increase your pay, austria would have to be less rigid and more open to risk. That will lead to the creation of more modern startups and more demand for your skills. Dont give into anti globalisation conspiracy theories as globalisation is benefiting austria by giving it access to vast markets. But since austria is mainly relying on old tech its now losing ground as it hasnt got much to sell.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#104

Post by cmrdporcupine »

BossingAround wrote: post #92

Every time I see this article reposted, I feel a pang of sadness. It's this chasing of the SF salary outside of the US that is supposed to be the holy grail of every engineer in rich EU countries. Well, if you get hired by FAANG in Germany, you don't get the SF salary. My experience is that companies that do offer extreme salaries do not do so out of competition with FAANG (since FAANG does not compete with itself gl…

Base level compensations for FAANG positions outside of SV are indeed pretty typical and humdrum.

But they contain a large equity portion. And over 2-3 years that equity portion ends up being more than the base salary, and you can get pretty close to a Bay Area compensation range.

e.g. I was L4 @ Google Waterloo in Canada. Base compensation was nothing special. Good for the immediate area, but not stellar. Yes, nice perks, amazing benefits, decent vacation, good bonus, etc. But after accruing RSUs for a few years you're probably making double what you started with. Especially so if the stock goes up a bunch.

Could you make more money working directly for Google in SV? Certainly, but your cost of living would be way higher. But even if you stay home you're likely making at least twice what your peers in the regular local companies are making.

Unfortunately it's terrible golden handcuffs, because nobody else in the region will be able to match that compensation package.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#105

Post by ido »

siva7 wrote: post #101
ido wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you’re saying the Dutch in the article shouldn’t complain that they earn less than Americans then?

The dutch isn’t earning ten times less than the average US developer. At best two times less, but that’s it (and FAANG salaries in US tech hubs are in no way representative for average US dev salaries)

But it’s exactly the same type of complaint “salaries in SFBA are higher for the same job in Amsterdam”, why shouldn’t a Pakistani dev level the same complain about developers in Amsterdam?

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#106

Post by Jacqued »

BossingAround wrote: post #92

Every time I see this article reposted, I feel a pang of sadness. It's this chasing of the SF salary outside of the US that is supposed to be the holy grail of every engineer in rich EU countries. Well, if you get hired by FAANG in Germany, you don't get the SF salary. My experience is that companies that do offer extreme salaries do not do so out of competition with FAANG (since FAANG does not compete with itself gl…

In my experience, this is mostly wrong. You don’t get 500-600k Silicon Valley offers in Europe just for being a solid engineer.

You do get a total comp that is 2-3x local market if you manage to get into FAANG like companies and even the tier below. I think this is what Gergely is describing.

That is still life changing for a lot of engineers, and worth the 3 month grind to get through the interviews. At least it was for me, and this article was a big part of why I made the jump.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#107

Post by V-2 »

moonchrome wrote: post #22
ido wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost of living in Poland is not actually 1/3 of Austria, the difference in cost is much smaller than in salary. But it's true that the more senior you are the less geography affects your wage.

Austria != Vienna, similar to how London != UK. Equating for standard of living (eg upper middle class) you'll likely be 3x in Vienna. Although I'm just guestinating on Gdansk, maybe it's a really expensive place.

I don't believe the difference is anywhere near 300%. Maybe 20 years ago.

Let's keep Vienna for comparison, but benchmark it against Warsaw (also substantially more expensive than the rest of the country). According to the data on Numbeo, "you would need around 2,562.64€ (12,036.56zł) in Warsaw to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 4,000.00€ in Vienna". Making Warsaw only 1.5x cheaper.

Gdańsk is probably in the top 5 most expensive ones (meaning cheaper than Warsaw), more or less at a level you'd expect from a city of that relative size (at roughly 450k inhabitants it's the 6th most populous in the country).

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#108

Post by sytelus »

Within FAANG, there is again tri-modal distribution. There are people who are hanging in there in IC roles for 15 years and then they are new comers straight out of school with PhD in deep learning and multiple competing offers. Both groups make approximately same money. Then there is upper management layer who have gotten promoted well beyond their competence by jumping internally and externally and they make 5X of everyone else.

Truth to be told, vast majority of FAANG population doesn’t make those fairytale money.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#109

Post by V-2 »

ceeplusplus wrote: post #3

Unfortunately this misses the difference in taxation vs. the US. You pay almost nothing for healthcare at any tech company and pay much lower taxes (both income and sales tax). So European offers are still much less competitive than the US.

In Poland most software engineers (at least the senior ones) are self-employed due to fiscal reasons. It means paying either a 19% flat tax rate with the possibility of cost deductions, or outright 12% (no deductions then).

You can also apply for an "intellectual property" tax relief (called IP Box), which is somewhat tricky, requires legal assistance and requires patience, but it can drive your income tax rate down to a mere 5%.

Of course this is self-employment, so you don't get paid sick leave or holidays, and labor law doesn't protect you (not really a problem in today's IT market) - however you still have full access to healthcare just like on a regular job contract.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#110

Post by varispeed »

BossingAround wrote: post #81
nivenkos wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and for most working professionals you get sweet FA. Like here in Sweden we pay 40% income tax, 25% sales tax and still have to pay about $30 for each doctor visit. Dentistry is not included in the state health coverage. Neither are annual checkups of any kind, so diagnosis can be difficult and slow, etc. In Sweden, those taxes are just going to those who are lucky enough to have first-hand subsidised apartment…

I am not disputing what you're saying about your healthcare system, but if you get hit by a car, I would guess that nobody will be afraid to call an ambulance for fear of the cost. The same cannot be said of the US, where people with emergencies take ubers to the hospital. You might take an uber to the hospital in Sweden too, out of convenience, but not out of fear for being stuck with a $1000 bill.

> The same cannot be said of the US, where people with emergencies take ubers to the hospital.

It's a bit ironic as a couple of months ago I had to call for an ambulance here in the UK when I found someone extremely unwell and they told me I should call an Uber and take that person to A&E myself, because they don't have free ambulances. Then at A&E they had over 3h waiting time for majors. You pay fortune in taxes and you get crap service. Often you have to go privately to see a specialist and you can't deduct that money from your taxes.

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