Why I’m Cryptophobic • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#101

Post by enaaem » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 3:10 PM UTC

rvense wrote: post #41

peyton wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don’t buy the old taxes-make-the-money-work chestnut. Far too many counterexamples.

As far as I can tell, money is so entirely based on trust that it might as well consist of it, trust in in some fuzzy combination of other people's continued rationality and things staying roughly the same. I accept 100 euro bills for my labour because I believe I'll continue to be able to trade them for food and shelter.

Fiat is indeed based on trust. The trust that the government remain functioning. Fiat is a government backed claim on economic production. That’s not trivial, because the government is the sole arbiter and enforcer of property rights. Fiat determines what resources you can legally assign to you, according to the rules of the sole arbiter of property rights.

The notion of property rights is only relevant with a central authority who is able to enforce it. Which could be a nation state, tribal chief or a lord. In the jungle you only own whatever you are able to defend. Even your own life.

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#102

Post by fleddr » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 3:11 PM UTC

upsidesinclude wrote: post #81

This is really long and I gave it my best shot, but from the onset it's intellectually dishonest. Anarcho =/= "centralized authority is corrupt and evil" He has redefined anarchism (no authority) to suit his needs and attached the negative connotation in his defining characteristics. The paradigm, which he has missed, is that the blockchain IS the "state". The authority of the system is derived from its working mecha…

I once lived in such an extreme anarcho libertarian society. It was called the 80s.

In that cash-based society, the government had no real idea how much cash I owned. I also had full freedom of transaction. Somehow taxes still got paid and crime wasn't really worse.

Apparently, this is now a far right position.

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#103

Post by Aunche » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 3:11 PM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #58

mjburgess wrote: post #4

There needs to be some basic economics here.. Money has value because of the value of the economic transactions in which its conducted. Government-backed currencies are forced to have value in the sense they force people to use it for their taxes. The US, additionally, forces the world to use it for oil trades. Value is in those economic transactions. A currency is just a "liquifying" of that value, to make it easier…

The continued existence of gold as a store of value (and to a lesser extent silver) contradicts this model. Very few economic transactions are denominated in gold, either as a medium of exchange or a unit of account. There is a small amount of industrial demand, but this is far too tiny to justify gold's gigantic market capitalization. Valued on industrial demand alone gold would maybe worth $100/oz, yet today it tra…

Gold is used for jewelry more than it used as a store of value. Even as a store of value, Gold has an advantage of cryptocurrency in that you can actually store it. Cryptocurrency presupposes the existence of the internet. If all the world reserve currencies collapse, there is a good chance that the internet would go down with it, and your cryptocurrency would be worthless.

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#104

Post by thesausageking » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 3:11 PM UTC

IncRnd wrote: post #87

> The world has never seen an economic phenomenon like crypto. There is no historical analogous technology trend or investment craze that comes close to capturing the sustained and frenzied momentum of crypto that has engulfed so many and that will continue to do. Never say never. Greed and speculation have a long and robust history. This crypto speculation and greed reminds of of the price of tulips. [1] During that…

"Tulip Mania" wasn't real. The "bubble" was a very small group of speculators and it did not have any larger affect on the industry. The stories about it were made up and come from propaganda pamphlets published by Dutch Calvinists who were worried that consumerism was causing societal decay:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/there-never-was-real-...

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#105

Post by pclmulqdq » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 3:12 PM UTC

javajosh wrote: post #16

janandonly wrote: post #2

I am also cryptophobic. That is why I only use Bitcoin. Bitcoin, not crypto. See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31932273

Bitcoin's primary value is access to gray or black markets. Bitcoins secondary value is appreciation, which depends on the primary value, plus a transient state where the public becomes aware of this new value at a pace that outstrips new BC generation. Bitcoin's tertiary value is marketplace/exchange operation, which depends on both primary and secondary values. But all of it rests on forbidden market access. The co…

But also, it is a terrible currency for accessing true black markets. It is 100% traceable. Lots of people have gotten caught buying bad stuff because they used Bitcoin. Just use cash. Or use Monero/Zcash.

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#106

Post by anonporridge » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 3:12 PM UTC

cowtools wrote: post #59

capableweb wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not the case for crypto No? You don't think the following statement is as true as the one you made? "If you have Bitcoin, you will find someone who is willing to exchange it for something else with material value in any city on the planet" My experience would tell me otherwise, but maybe I'm a outlier.

I think bitcoin is about as difficult to transact as gold, although in ideal circumstances cryptocurrency should be easier to transact than gold. However, gold has a fundamentally stronger argument for its value. Gold is useful: it has unique physical and chemical properties.

This strikes me as obviously untrue.

Gold is drastically more difficult to transact in than bitcoin or any cryptocurrency. Not only is it extremely difficult to create exact change to pay in gold (shaving of milligrams per dollar?) but there is zero infrastructure or education on how to verify that the gold is real. Even modern nation state banks have been fooled by tungsten cored bars of gold.

There are plenty of well established crypto apps that make receipt, verification, and conversion into your preferred cryptocurrencies or fiat currencies instant and effortless.

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#107

Post by cowtools » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 3:13 PM UTC

debacle wrote: post #20

The greatest evil of cryptocurrency is that it destroyed any hope for real micropayments.

I disagree. I think internet advertising is what killed micropayments. If anything, cryptocurrencies would be really useful for micropayments if they weren't used as poker chips.

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#108

Post by hans1729 » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 3:13 PM UTC

kwertyoowiyop wrote: post #83

hans1729 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So scarcity pays no role in value? Is the Mona Lisa not valuable? You're mixing up things. I can draw a one-off picture, that doesn't make the drawing valuable (sadly. If you want to buy my paintings, hmu). The value needs to be attributed by a shared denominator, which for the example of Mona Lisa is cultural prestige. Crypto has zero inherent cultural prestige, it's only value lies in social attribution. Wallets o…

NFTs = attempted cultural prestige for crypto?

Ha, nice. Problem: art receives value wrt the artwork, not the canvas, so the screenshot-meme wins. (Unless the cultural prestige lies in the underlaying technology itself, in which case the piece of art is the blockchain-implementation, not embedded content)

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#109

Post by aabhay » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 3:13 PM UTC

welshwelsh wrote: post #54

mjburgess wrote: post #4

There needs to be some basic economics here.. Money has value because of the value of the economic transactions in which its conducted. Government-backed currencies are forced to have value in the sense they force people to use it for their taxes. The US, additionally, forces the world to use it for oil trades. Value is in those economic transactions. A currency is just a "liquifying" of that value, to make it easier…

Imagine a future where the vast majority of work is automated. Most of this is computationally expensive work, such as training large neural networks, and the average program takes a substantial amount of resources to run, comparable to paying a human worker. In this scenario, labor power has been replaced by GPU power, which can be measured in terms of electricity. Everything from ordering a meal at a restaurant to…

Why not? What's to prevent two parties from creating a digital smart contract denominated in dollars? Don't we already do this with things like credit card pre-auth? And the best part is that the transaction is backed by a predictable rule of law as long as the transaction takes place within a country.

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#110

Post by logifail » Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 3:13 PM UTC

> "Contrary to popular belief the crypto market did not collapse"

Umm, shades of the Iraqi Information Minister in that statement. Take a look at the USD/Bitcoin chart for the last 12 months.