Live data from Hacker News

Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

sciencehistory.org

101–110 of 175 posts

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#101
> (Incidentally, after Universe 25’s collapse, Calhoun began building new utopias to encourage creative behavior by keeping mice physically and mentally nourished. This research, in turn, inspired a children’s book named after Calhoun’s workplace—Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH, wherein a group of rats escape from a colony designed to stimulate their intelligence.)

One of my favorite books growing up - and indeed among the very few I read voluntarily.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#102
Contrary to what most written accounts say about Calhoun’s most famous experiment, he did not provide his mice with unlimited resources. The provided plenty of everything except for physical space. This article does a better job covering that angle where other articles barely mention the issue or describe the problems that stem from it.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#104
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same boat. I'm not a vegan, and I try my absolute best to avoid thinking about what we put animals through. It certainly sits in a specific category of intrusive thoughts. The only real analog to this in my mind is being aware of my own mortality; I just avoid that thought and shove it out of my mind. Occasionally my comparatively relaxed life is harshly interrupted by an awareness of these facts and I'm ripped back…

Disclaimer: I’m “vegan”, for some definition of the word. Candidly, I think that reduction in animal suffering is worthwhile, but you get diminishing returns quite quickly. I’d suggest only doing things that are easy. For example: - While grocery shopping you’re choosing between two types of burgers with similar cost and enjoyment: pick the one that causes less suffering. - Your tires need to be replaced for a campin…

I'm strictly vegetarian, I will not ever eat meat, but as for vegan parts this is my strategy and it works really well!

it's pretty easy these days, too. veg foods are prolifically available, and oat milk is damn good, even in my morning cappuccino.

it becomes something that is positive when it's always a minimization and hueristic rather than a ruleset and guilt-ridden.

essentially, "I'm vegan but i don't stress it"

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#105

So it wasn't an utopia. The mice had enough water and food, but they ran out of living space. It's so obvious I can't understand nobody pointed it out yet.

Surprisingly, this is the best article thus far in pointing out the issues arising from a lack of space. This is the only article that seems to even address the lack of space.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting to me at least that the group’s population crashed completely to zero and not to just a low number that then began climbing again. This is undoubtably a consequence of mice not being able to escape from the chaos due to the small size of the territory, but I do wonder what the minimum viable size would be to allow for a full boom-bust-boom cycle to occur.

I don't think it's that surprising, especially as an occasional result. Consider that surviving severe overpopulation is trauma. Survivors are physically and/or psychologically sick. They're not good breeders and at this point. Happens frequently in aquariums. Guppies breed like guppies. Overpopulate, then die back. The proximate causes can be varied. Maybe there's an ammonia spike, oxygen deficiency or other consequ…

> If you had multiple colonies connected by 500m of tubing, this "distance" between territories might allow for "local" booms and busts to occur.

I was thinking the same thing. From the article I got the impression that the final collapse happened because all the survivors were the same age, and too old to spawn a new generation. Semi-separation would at least break the synchronization.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#107
post #27
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only in the sense that people are bad with numbers and timescales, and that the fears themselves directly led to funding for research that happened to be successful at creating affordable solutions. The fictional population of NYC in Soylent Green (released 1973, set in 2022) was 40 million, whereas the actual population today is 8.8 million, but even 40 million would give it about the population density of Manila to…

> The fictional population of NYC in Soylent Green (released 1973, set in 2022) was 40 million, whereas the actual population today is 8.8 million, but even 40 million would give it about the population density of Manila today and wouldn’t look like it was portrayed in the film. Another example is Isaac Asimov's Trantor, a world-wide city enclosed with globes which requires the resources of multiple agricultural worl…

It’s hard to take making sense of population numbers with the use of fictional material.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#108

It would seem like the more obvious lesson would be, "when in conditions very different from what that species evolved for, new and often serious problems will arise". Which is, no doubt, true and even relevant. But, since we evolved for conditions very different than rats did, I'm not sure how much more can be concluded. It does point out, though, the importance of being skeptical of any other scientific study done…

What was surprising is that the mice didn’t end up evolving some traits and instincts optimized for the new conditions. I would’ve thought they would learn new behavior after a few generations to thrive in the new environment. This makes me think that a post scarcity environment may not be enough to ensure the survival of a species

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#109
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and because of this, mankind has developed an interesting game called "war"...

Though this creates a bit of a problem if you're no longer having wars.

There is a theory that precisely this is why Putin decided to try and take over Ukraine with most of the troops coming from piss poor regions of Russia. For Putin, it likely still is a win-win scenario: the fallen soldiers won't protest in their home regions and demand reforms, their families will worship them as heroes and even if the war fails in the end and only Crimea and Donbas get under Russian control [1], it will still have been worth the effort.

[1] Note that I wish for Russia to be completely driven out of Ukraine and to be treated as a warmonger like Germany was after 1945, this is unfortunately not realistic.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#110

One of the worst jobs i ever had, occasionally required us to drown some mice. Excess population / euthanized "feeders" for pet snakes. The method was to put several mice into a small wire cage, and then submerge the cage in water. Usually I filled a bucket with hot water, beforehand, and made this operation fast as possible. Dunk and done. One day I came across a cow orker attempting to do this job (I had been busy…

Why hot water? I would have thought cold or preferably lukewarm water would be more humane.
Post reply on HN