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I cheated on my Microsoft interview (2019)

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Re: I cheated on my Microsoft interview (2019)

#101

Post by TheRealNGenius »

Znafon wrote: post #14

I would not have though to use this formula. The sum of the integers grows as the square of n so if n is anything but small you will overflow and get an erroneous answer. This interview question has everything bad imo: no practical uses, test knowledge of math formulas (which every math/CS major would have but none of the self learning folks). It’s very easy to stress and fail when given such a test, and even already…

True, but that doesn't matter at all given reasonable values of n. The number is in the range of n^2, but the algorithm is in the range O(1). Question is not that bad, my first thought was to use hash table to store what you see, then return when duplicate occurs. Don't like hash table fine, set an array of size n storing TRUE when you see the number. Notice it twice, then you've found the duplicate. No need for math, O(n) solution.

Honestly if you're stressing over a question like this, combined with thinking that integer overflow is even remotely something that you need to be concerned about in a question like this, you're definitely not passing any leetcode interview problems tossed around in today's interviewing culture.

Re: I cheated on my Microsoft interview (2019)

#102

Post by inferiorhuman »

Longlius wrote: post #89

Every time the topic of cheating comes up on HN, I become increasingly disheartened by the amount of people chiming in who think it's not only alright to cheat but also laudable to do so. Ethics are foundational to engineering. Jettisoning them is a sign of a discipline in decline.

I'm not massively bothered by the "cheating" because I think that it highlights flaws with the evaluation in the first place.

Re: I cheated on my Microsoft interview (2019)

#103

Post by ethanwillis »

echelon wrote: post #93
Longlius wrote: post #89

Every time the topic of cheating comes up on HN, I become increasingly disheartened by the amount of people chiming in who think it's not only alright to cheat but also laudable to do so. Ethics are foundational to engineering. Jettisoning them is a sign of a discipline in decline.

Is it cheating if the person asks his recently hired friend what the interviews were like and he just happens to get the same question? This is a case of random chance and Microsoft not having a wide enough of an interviewer pool. It didn't seem willful, malicious, or pre-planned on the part of the candidate. How would you respond in the moment? They admitted they were shocked to see the question. They were probably…

I can almost guarantee you the "friend" was not supposed to disclose what the problem was that was asked of him. It's not a problem of the pool. It's a problem of the ethics of both his friend, and him.

Re: I cheated on my Microsoft interview (2019)

#104

Post by joeman1000 »

Ok, so how are interviews fair at all then? How do they really tell anything about the person, other than the fact they are good at interviews? How is it fair that all the other people queued up to interview didn’t get a shot because they didn’t do as well in a 5 minute high pressure period? This 5 minutes probably determined the courses of their lives. What the fuck? Does anyone feel as flabbergasted about interviews and tests? I just cannot do them, I need time and space to think.

Re: I cheated on my Microsoft interview (2019)

#105

Post by rvnx »

lisper wrote: post #92

Luck has played an outsized role in my life. Two notable examples: 1. In 1992 I learned that a colleague of mine was a member of the Magic Castle [1] and offered me a guest pass. I had a long-standing love of magic, and the chance to go to the Castle seemed like a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. I invited some friends to go with me, and one of those friends asked if she could bring a friend, and of course I said yes.…

2. Google or Bitcoin sound like details compared to helping humanity to conquer new planets.

Re: I cheated on my Microsoft interview (2019)

#106

Post by coupdejarnac »

zwkrt wrote: post #94
Longlius wrote: post #89

Every time the topic of cheating comes up on HN, I become increasingly disheartened by the amount of people chiming in who think it's not only alright to cheat but also laudable to do so. Ethics are foundational to engineering. Jettisoning them is a sign of a discipline in decline.

I desperately wish there were some kind of equivalent to the Bar Association for software. A higher power that can punish blatant ethical violations in the face of the relentless greed of an engineer's boss, company, or industry. I think of the Volkswagen emissions snafu and how that might have been handled differently if the engineers had something with teeth to use to push back against unethical and illegal practic…

The association you're probably looking for is the board of professional engineers that many here want nothing to do with.

Re: I cheated on my Microsoft interview (2019)

#107

Post by Kim_Bruning »

Ekaros wrote: post #56
hamburglar wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say the only person “at fault” is the interviewer for using such an awful question. This is precisely the kind of question that gives programming puzzle interviews a bad name. If you’ve heard it before, it’s trivial and proves nothing. If you haven’t, you have to have a clever a-ha moment in order to do anything but brute-force it. “Have you heard this one story about Karl Gauss as a child” is a really terrib…

I wonder what sort of response interviewer would give if asked. So how is this solution used in your company?

So,based on reading the article; you'll see that to arrive at the solution the writer:

* Communicated with a colleague (communications/interpersonal networking) * Thought hard about it (applying previous knowledge and experience) * Looked up and found relevant information (knowing where to look) * Combined the above to come to a solution. (and had the skill to put it together)

By coincidence the practice practice question was also the one that was asked at the interview. If the interviewers had asked a different question, similar steps would have needed to be applied[1].

The question itself was an obvious practice question. There are many decent answers to the problem. What they were looking for were the knowledge, skills and experience that needed to be applied in the process of solving the problem. The point was to see if the candidate had those abilities.

I'm fine with using a practice question for this. A real world problem often involves a lot of real world noise, which makes it impossible to efficiently resolve within the constraints of a 60 minute chat.

I am -however- fully open to an argument that perhaps some form of Goodhart's Law ("When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure") may have struck again.

[1] Perhaps not the exact same set of skills, given the constraints of the interview setting. One COULD argue that the interviewers accidentally picked up on more than they were looking for.

Re: I cheated on my Microsoft interview (2019)

#108

Post by ethanwillis »

altdataseller wrote: post #97
Longlius wrote: post #89

Every time the topic of cheating comes up on HN, I become increasingly disheartened by the amount of people chiming in who think it's not only alright to cheat but also laudable to do so. Ethics are foundational to engineering. Jettisoning them is a sign of a discipline in decline.

Hate the game, not the player

I hate this quote, the game, AND the player.

Re: I cheated on my Microsoft interview (2019)

#109

Post by codingdave »

benjaminwootton wrote: post #21
bloodyplonker22 wrote: post #5

He cheated more on writing a clickbait title than actually "cheating" on the interview. This is the same thing as when a kid in class thought studying was a way to cheat.

This guy is one of those LinkedIn thought leader types prone to oversharing for attention.

I believe that the attention he is seeking is simply marketing. Almost all of his content revolves around hiring and working in tech, which is the core focus of his business. The overall trend is, "I've seen the bad, and built something better, so check us out."

I don't have a problem with people marketing themselves on LinkedIn - it that not the entire purpose of the site?

Re: I cheated on my Microsoft interview (2019)

#110

Post by belter »

omegalulw wrote: post #39
bloodyplonker22 wrote: post #5

He cheated more on writing a clickbait title than actually "cheating" on the interview. This is the same thing as when a kid in class thought studying was a way to cheat.

Its not cheating but it's absolutely unethical. OP is right that they should have disclosed that they had seen the problem before. It only is that the right thing to do but also good interviewers can tell when you genuinely thought about a problem vs just regurgitated the solution.

As unethical as the hundreds of interviewers who pretend to believe that the candidate in front of them, just somehow managed to find within minutes the solution to some programming puzzle, and not through hundreds of hours of mentoring and self-practice.

I would propose to change coding interviews to the following scheme:

Step 1:

Interviewer ask a coding question. If candidate is able to answer correctly then move to Step 2

Step 2:

Candidate asks a coding question from Interviewer. If Interviewer answers correctly go back to Step 1. If Interviewer is not able to answer correctly in 60 min, and Candidate is able to explain solution and implementation, move to Step 3

Step 3:

Interview is over and Candidate automatically qualifies for next hiring phase.

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