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Science Is Getting Harder

mattsclancy.substack.com

101–110 of 150 posts

Re: Science Is Getting Harder

#101
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science continues to work, but the work of being a "scientist" really sucks because of this stuff. I personally left science because I could see it had 98% overlap with what I'd do as an engineer (or entrepreneur, in the case of a PI), with a tiny fraction of the monetary benefit. Being a winner in that system is a great life, but it rests upon a huge pyramid of people who are working their butts off at low pay and l…

I agree with you. Being a scientist has become worse (although I would argue that is true for many other jobs as well). A PI nowadays really works like the leader of a small startup constantly looking for money to keep the ship afloat without the prospect of a big payout at the end.

> A PI nowadays really works like the leader of a small startup constantly looking for money to keep the ship afloat without the prospect of a big payout at the end.

I said exactly the same thing when I first left academia for tech, and people would look at me suspiciously and ask why I'd ever do such a thing. I looked at every PI I knew, and saw a task essentially identical to running a startup, but with no financial upside -- and the downside risk of being jobless and adrift if you don't get tenure.

Re: Science Is Getting Harder

#102
post #16

So acedemical research isn't relevant to new technologies anymore? Then one might conclude that most technology driven research is done in private companies rather than in public academia.

Not as much as it used to it would seem. And that has got to do with some major misalignment in academic institutions. I don’t even want to sound off on all the BS “research” that’s going on in humanities (and which worryingly spills into STEM at an alarming rate). But even STEM research itself wastes too much time with costly self-serving objectives, rather than shooting for breakthroughs that lead to actual applica…

I think it's the opposite. Science stagnates because the system focuses too much on justifications and practically useful results and too little on curiosity.

For a few decades, the prevailing school of thought in public administration has focused on justifications. You must always justify how the public will benefit from the proposed use of money. Then you must report that you used the money for justified reasons. The administrators will also audit you to ensure that you didn't use the money for frivolous purposes.

As a consequence, you can't get funding for studying something you find interesting. Instead, you must always justify how your research will benefit the public. If you manage to get funding, you must spend a lot of time reporting how you used that money and what it did enable you to do. Those reporting requirements are also one of the major reasons for the administrative bloat in the academia.

The general public does not want to fund BS research, and science stagnates largely as an unintended consequence of that.

Re: Science Is Getting Harder

#103
I'm a scientist, though not a leading researcher by any means. But when I'm tempted to think that science is hard, I think about the science in the past and what primitive tools they had: No computers before 1950. No electronics before 1900 (all dates give or take). No calculus, etc. Al Khwarizmi had no equations! And when algebra and calculus came out, you practically had to be a philosopher just to grasp them. Now they're taught to schoolchildren.

Re: Science Is Getting Harder

#104
There are some things to think about with respect to the data analysis presented here:

1) On number of papers published, citation value, etc. There may be an inflation in the numbers of PhD's granted for little more than serving as a PI's lab tech for a few years. That requires a few publications. Often the publication count is inflated by splitting a paper that would be more coherent as a single publication into several publications to fluff a CV. Such papers may not get many citations. This is about politics and careers, not about the quality of science being done.

2) Universities are in the market trying to patent discoveries and license them to big corporations. This is very bad for basic scientific discovery in many fields, as funding is directed away from those fields. Basic science underlies later applied science applications. Shutting off basic research is killing the goose that laid the golden eggs, but the administrators want those sweet patent license payments more than anything else.

3) People with the potential to do difficult science and math, but who happen to come from a background where they can't afford college without large loans, are much less likely to go into academic research than in prior eras in the USA when college was less expensive. Many would like to do research but the economics of current education systems are incompatible with that goal.

4) Some areas of research are simply not being funded anymore due to pressure from entrenched interests in areas like energy, pharmaceuticals, etc. Renewable energy research is a threat to fossil fuel interests. One-shot cures for diseases like HIV/AIDS are a threat to the profits of pharmaceutical companies selling lifetime maintenance programs. Research into environmental pollution is a threat to a wide variety of interests, as is research into declining biodiversity.

The corporatization and financialization of literally everything is really out of control, and these are the side effects.

Re: Science Is Getting Harder

#105
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is especially true in math and physics. You will find that no matter what problem you can think of, either it has already been solved to the highest level of abstraction, or it's an unsolved and famous problem, or not worthwhile/trivial. This hasn't been my experience in fluid dynamics. There are so many places where one could apply a standard approach that people haven't. It takes some effort and experience t…

I think GP is conflating Maths with Pure Maths. While I’m sure there is new ground to break in Pure Maths, I would agree that it’s getting harder and harder. However, as you note, in Applied Maths there are more unsolved problems than you could address with a million researchers. A physicist or pure Mather social looks at Navier-Stokes and says, “Oh, we know how that works, nothing to do there I guess”, whereas the a…

> A physicist or pure Mather social looks at Navier-Stokes and says, “Oh, we know how that works, nothing to do there I guess”

I don't know if that's the best example, it's one of the Millennium Prize problems to prove that smooth solutions always exist to the Navier-Stokes equations. Pure mathematicians do, by and large, still consider proving the existence of things to be "something".

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here.

Re: Science Is Getting Harder

#106
post #99
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't decide whether Teller's head is stuck up the rafters of the ivory tower he lives in or whether it is held up where the sun does not shine. There are so many students in academia searching for the magic path through graduate school where you can get a permanent role either in teaching or tenureship (research) that it is becoming a crisis for both STEM fields and otherwise. It is easy for him to preach when he…

Yeah I really don't understand what he's saying there - where does he think his salary comes from? Money buys those interested individuals time to pursue that interest, and the more of it we have the more people we can put in the right time and place to find the next big thing.

I think the key point is the "and worked in modest conditions", emphasis on modest.

Injecting a ton of money creates perverse incentives and attracts people who are not interested pursuing something out of curiosity and interest, but for the money.

I think it probably creates a hostile environment for people who are there out of pure interest, because if there is a way to earn more money/status/power/whatever by doing something other than good work people will do it. So you effectively get punished for doing what you're supposed to instead of playing the game.

I think the "professional money extractor" explanation here is an apt description: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18003253.

Re: Science Is Getting Harder

#107
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we underestimate the amount of politics that was going on in science previously. Really compared to the shenanigans with Newton, Leibnitz or Hooke and Newton, much of what we see today is quite harmless. Or take for a more recent example Teller and Oppenheimer. I think in science (but not only in science) we tend to idealise the old days and scientists, because we remember the discoveries not the politics and…

I often wonder about this, and have talked about this all with older colleagues. My sense is some things were the same, but others were really different. Even looking at the peer review process: it was much more informal in the distant past, and maybe more akin to what happens today with invited papers in my experience, or with small open source software projects. There were certaintly very petty but intense personal…

Heck, you can see this in the difference between member contributed submissions to PNAS and ones that go through the normal system.

Re: Science Is Getting Harder

#108
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science continues to work, but the work of being a "scientist" really sucks because of this stuff. I personally left science because I could see it had 98% overlap with what I'd do as an engineer (or entrepreneur, in the case of a PI), with a tiny fraction of the monetary benefit. Being a winner in that system is a great life, but it rests upon a huge pyramid of people who are working their butts off at low pay and l…

I agree with you. Being a scientist has become worse (although I would argue that is true for many other jobs as well). A PI nowadays really works like the leader of a small startup constantly looking for money to keep the ship afloat without the prospect of a big payout at the end.

This.

I am a PI.

What I spent my day doing was dealing with managerial tasks, fiddly stuff for funding applications, etc.

I got to actually code for a whole day last week, and it was marvelous. It was also only possible because it was an all-hands-on-deck, everything else can wait situation.

Re: Science Is Getting Harder

#109
post #16

So acedemical research isn't relevant to new technologies anymore? Then one might conclude that most technology driven research is done in private companies rather than in public academia.

The moderna vaccine was invented in a weekend because the researchers knew the basic science that had been done on other corona viruses in academia.

Re: Science Is Getting Harder

#110

This is especially true in math and physics. You will find that no matter what problem you can think of, either it has already been solved to the highest level of abstraction, or it's an unsolved and famous problem, or not worthwhile/trivial. Like, what about analogous of elliptic functions for non-elliptic integrals? already been done. The past century has seen a huge explosion of research into STEM subjects, from m…

> This is especially true in math and physics. You will find that no matter what problem you can think of, either it has already been solved to the highest level of abstraction, or it's an unsolved and famous problem, or not worthwhile/trivial. This hasn't been my experience in fluid dynamics. There are so many places where one could apply a standard approach that people haven't. It takes some effort and experience t…

A huge portion of my research agenda is trying to get math and CS colleagues to apply pretty standard techniques to novel problems.

If it works well, you get to push clinical science forward.

Then about half the time, "This seems like a boring classification problem" turns out to be way harder than expected.

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