What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi? • Hacker News Board

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#101

Post by mistermann » Tue, May 31, 2022, 1:35 AM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #61

jhap wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think most people "lie about it", at least not intentionally. I think it's more likely they get really caught up in the moment or something among those lines. I am interested in what in what it would be like to go to a concert of a bar with one of these people.

> I don't think most people "lie about it", at least not intentionally. No, they do, and are usually pushed into it by prayer retreats and a forced lack of sleep (in the stories I've heard.) It's after they fake it once in order to sleep, then get into the habit of faking it, that they decide that they were never actually faking it, retconning the first incident into an awakening. It was once only tiny pentecostal se…

What percentage of the congregation ticks all these boxes, consistently over time?

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#102

Post by Terry_Roll » Tue, May 31, 2022, 1:42 AM UTC

sdfhdhjdw3 wrote: post #58

narag wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Drugs" is simple enough. Actually training naked virgins to go bananas without some chemical help seems a little more complicated. Something the article doesn't seem to consider is the possibilty that there was some kind of (natural or built) chamber where the gas could get trapped and thus concentration be higher.

Not training. Maybe she figured out that making up bullshit gave her power. Seems a lot simpler than "drugs".

It is plausible, we only have to look to social media and politicians to see what they do to people.

Take prophecy its much like crystal ball gazing, where the crystal ball reader gives a vague report which is open to interpretation for people who are looking for hope can get something to cling onto. A good example is left handed people have historically been seen as wrong 'uns in the bible so right handed people can be prejudiced in much the same way as the rich look down at the poor or white Americans generally view non whites as inferior.

When looking at "spiritual" experiences sometimes the experience can give a clue to what sort of drug may be involved.

For example DMT aka Dimethyltryptamine often generates fractal machine elves hallucinations. https://tripsitter.com/dmt/machine-elves/

Calea zacatechichi however you pronounce it gives you vivid dreams https://tripsitter.com/calea-zacatechichi/

LSD is reportedly fuzzy visuals if Timothy Leary's book is anything to go by.

Hallucinogens suggest to me the parts of the brain they affect.

So when looking at religious texts like some listed here https://www.openbible.info/topics/prophecy_visions_and_dream... how much of the bible is really just accounts of people who have knowingly or otherwise ingested some drugs? They didnt have science like we have it today so like we see with some scientific studies, we see a level of explanation projected onto the results that sometimes causes the tail to wag the dog, aka becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.

Whats scary is that even today the sky fairies aka god(s) still control much of this planets population through govt, religions or just generally superstitious people. Like alcohol, its a way for people to blame anyone but themselves for their actions, whilst also offering a form of very cheap psychological therapy.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7969-gamblers-are-a-s...

I think people generally recognise that AI is good at spotting what humans can not as this article suggests. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61609689 ""AI can sniff out areas of significances. Humans do a very bad job at layering data, whereas AI can do it in seconds," says Mr O'Shannessy."

Its quite likely AI will probably end up killing religion, prophecy, superstition and erratic behaviour in general, unless drug taking increases through the relaxation of cannabis and other drugs.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#103

Post by stale2002 » Tue, May 31, 2022, 2:01 AM UTC

kordlessagain wrote: post #37

mcphage wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think first it would need to be established that she did in fact see the future.

This is an example of Positivism. I think the primary problem with positivism is the knowledge about the universe is never fully attained, so it feels more like a confused reasoning process. The assumption the scientific method will explain everything someday is irrational. When is that going to happen? With more work? What positivism really is, is a commitment to a bunch of work in the future to "prove" something is…

A critique of a strawman of empiricism, is not really a justification for an alternative truth system (mysticism.).

Yes, there are things that are unknowable, even with the tools of empiricism.

But pointing out this issue, in no way supports the idea of using a non-sense ideology in its place, or even ascribing any value to such a thing.

> that holds that there is value in both kinds of knowledge

No, there is no knowledge in mysticism. And is it a bad argument to point out a supposed problem in empiricism, as a justification for a different system, when that other system doesn't deal with the problem any better.

> believing something irrational to be true, makes it true.

Believing something to be true, does not make it true, unless you redefine the word "true" to a nonsense definition of "Well a true thing, is whatever we believe to be true. Gotcha, I win! I just created a self-consistent tautology, by playing word games, and making up a new definition! You can't call me wrong, because it's a consistent, self referential belief! That intro to philosophy class sure was useful!"

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#104

Post by mistermann » Tue, May 31, 2022, 2:25 AM UTC

hprotagonist wrote: post #36

kergonath wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most languages are pretty much universal and unbiased and are capable of expressing an infinite amount of concepts. Yes, most of them are (or can be, with the addition of a couple of neologisms or borrowings). Just like you can do anything with any Turing-complete language. Languages and cultures still have biases and built-in world views. For example, to most Europeans, the idea that you would need to estimate you…

> For example, to most Europeans, the idea that you would need to estimate your social rank to properly address someone is utterly alien. A phenomenon that is, at best, about a century old. Maybe. That there aren’t grammatical forms or special declensions of words that signal rank relationships (as there are in, say, japanese) does not for an instant mean that we do not consciously choose linguistic styles based on s…

> That there aren’t grammatical forms or special declensions of words that signal rank relationships (as there are in, say, japanese) does not for an instant mean that we do not consciously choose linguistic styles based on social structure. Especially in Europe.

Is it then logical to conclude that in the general area of the topic of discussion, there is in fact no noteworthy difference between Japanese and other cultures? There is nothing that exists in reality within this domain that has escaped the gaze of science?

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#105

Post by mistermann » Tue, May 31, 2022, 2:28 AM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #100

noasaservice wrote: post #71

I know that magic is poo-pooed and all, but, have you considered that answer as well? Or perhaps they weren't hallucinations, and instead divinations. Calling what the Oracle of Delphi had "hallucinations" puts a bad spin on it from the onset. Or lets not get hung up with the word "magic". Lets call it a 5th type of energy. Mechanical detection don't work, but a number of humans can feel it. Hard to measure for sure.…

> makes verification hard/impossible In other words, unfalsifiable. That means it's unscientific too.

Out of curiosity: if something isn't scientific, does that mean that it doesn't exist?

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#106

Post by dr_dshiv » Tue, May 31, 2022, 3:20 AM UTC

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #66

andi999 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can dragons be memories of dinosaurs? Or do you think some skeletons were found?

The identification of dinosaurs as dragons is a common theory but I believe the historical evidence for it is extremely sparse. Still, it is really strange to me that dinosaur bones were only officially discovered in 1841.

Regarding Chinese dragon bones:

http://markwitton-com.blogspot.com/2021/03/dinosaur-fossils-...

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#107

Post by dr_dshiv » Tue, May 31, 2022, 3:23 AM UTC

dr_dshiv wrote: post #57

The only picture of the Pythian priestess is a red figure drinking cup from around 430 BC. She sits on a bronze tripod, holds laurel leaves and a bowl or water or wine. She would, apparently, listen to the rustle of the leaves— scry into the ripples of water — and feel the resonant vibrations of the tripod. All in order to channel the wisdom of the god Apollo. Sources of randomness to support creative inspiration. Se…

Here is the image:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-only-surviving-image...

Also, the ethylene theorists have a rebuttal. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/155636507014778...

It’s funny that neither paper attempted to just try the stuff and, you know, attempt mantic divination.

And there is some evidence for those laurel leaves (which were chewed) to be psychoactive. https://muse.jhu.edu/article/581067/summary

And, finally, that the oracle used lots (dice, basically) for divination. More randomness. https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.1086/358831

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#108

Post by UberFly » Tue, May 31, 2022, 3:24 AM UTC

The Cult of Kosmos of course, until Kassandra did away with those scheming manipulators. Good riddance. ;)

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#109

Post by josephcsible » Tue, May 31, 2022, 3:31 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #105

josephcsible wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> makes verification hard/impossible In other words, unfalsifiable. That means it's unscientific too.

Out of curiosity: if something isn't scientific, does that mean that it doesn't exist?

No. It just means that you shouldn't do things to make other people believe that it is scientific.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#110

Post by coastflow » Tue, May 31, 2022, 3:51 AM UTC

andi999 wrote: post #65

goto11 wrote: post #51

The final point about positivism is important. Geeks love naturalistic explanations of mythological ideas, however far fetched. Trolls are really cultural memory of Neanderthals. Dragons are dinosaurs. The witch craze was due to ergot poisoning etc. If anyone is interested in what actual historians think about such theories, read for example this: https://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2018/06/delphic-oracle.ht... Tl/dr:…

How can dragons be memories of dinosaurs? Or do you think some skeletons were found?

Quick quote from Wikipedia (via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon#Myth_origins): "In her book The First Fossil Hunters: Dinosaurs, Mammoths, and Myth in Greek and Roman Times (2000), Adrienne Mayor argues that some stories of dragons may have been inspired by ancient discoveries of fossils belonging to dinosaurs and other prehistoric animals.[19] She argues that the dragon lore of northern India may have been inspired by "observations of oversized, extraordinary bones in the fossilbeds of the Siwalik Hills below the Himalayas"[20] and that ancient Greek artistic depictions of the Monster of Troy may have been influenced by fossils of Samotherium, an extinct species of giraffe whose fossils are common in the Mediterranean region.[20] In China, a region where fossils of large prehistoric animals are common, these remains are frequently identified as "dragon bones"[21] and are commonly used in traditional Chinese medicine.[21] Mayor, however, is careful to point out that not all stories of dragons and giants are inspired by fossils[21] and notes that Scandinavia has many stories of dragons and sea monsters, but has long "been considered barren of large fossils."[21] In one of her later books, she states that "Many dragon images around the world were based on folk knowledge or exaggerations of living reptiles, such as Komodo dragons, Gila monsters, iguanas, alligators, or, in California, alligator lizards, though this still fails to account for the Scandinavian legends, as no such animals (historical or otherwise) have ever been found in this region."[22]"

In summary, a historian argues that some, but not all, societies found the fossils of reptiles, and created myths involving dragons using these fossils as inspirations for the dragons' imagery.