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Ten years of trying to meditate

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Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#101

Post by Enginerrrd »

titanomachy wrote: post #63
Enginerrrd wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's an extreme claim that requires a lot of evidence. For what it's worth, I Don't think it's an extreme claim at all. The potential for ill-effects from more extreme efforts in Meditation is starting to be documented by western scientists. A lot of adverse outcomes aren't only possible, but actually quite common. I personally had ZERO prior mental health issues, but after 3-4 months of meditating 30-90 minutes e…

I think this stuff is actually pretty typical for folks who progress to a certain stage. I experienced it as well, if that makes you feel any better. The Buddhists definitely know about this, but a lot of their writing is pretty impenetrable and interlaced with weird metaphysics. Here's some modern, secular words on the subject (from the admittedly controversial author Daniel Ingram): https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table…

Yeah, it came as a real shock to me at first. I had made many mistakes in my early meditation career. But I learned a lot more and suddenly started progressing. This was wonderful at first. I started to feel and experience some pretty mind-blowing things on the cushion at first and then extending well off the cushion into the rest of my life. Then... I remember random memories started to kind of pop into my awareness. I started to see a bright light shining through my eyes/head while I was on the cushion. This was accompanied by these almost divine feelings of bliss and content, which sometimes extended for hours after my sit. This was very cool at first. Then... this weird head pressure and uncomfortable feeling between my eyes started showing up. My single pointed focus was impossible to maintain because the intense feeling of pressure between my eyes or on the crown of my head would grow more and more distracting as I tried to regain the single pointed focus I had been enjoying. Then... shortly after that, the pressure turned into full tension headaches that lasted all day on bad days. Then... I was working in my office at home one day and my vision suddenly became blurry. Then, I started to feel nauseous. I went to throw up, I could feel the usual feelings of vomiting coming up from my abdomen, then up my throat, then... when it reached my mouth/face, instead of vomit this wave of intense sadness reached my face and it contorted into an expression of anguish. For the next like 30 minutes, wave after wave of this sadness, in every nuanced flavor I'd ever experienced started coming up, taking over my face, then passing. Then the rage. So much anger and rage and betrayel and hurt came and did the same thing. Wave after wave. I had NO idea WTF was happening to me, but I'd always been an absolute pinnacle of mental stability so this was very unusual. I didn't know what else to do but to let it pass.

After that, for months, the head pressure / headaches would reappear and then they'd be relieved by me crying. Feeling the intense feelings and going away.

But... I really wasn't expecting any of that. I just wanted to be able to focus better and think more clearly. I didn't sign up for THIS. So I just let it go and fade. I didn't really want to accidentally screw my brain up. So, unfortunately, I haven't started a daily practice again since. It all did feel pretty cathartic though.

I've dabbled here and there with meditating again. When I do it with any real regularity though, the head pressure tends to come back.

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#102

Post by titanomachy »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #101
titanomachy wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this stuff is actually pretty typical for folks who progress to a certain stage. I experienced it as well, if that makes you feel any better. The Buddhists definitely know about this, but a lot of their writing is pretty impenetrable and interlaced with weird metaphysics. Here's some modern, secular words on the subject (from the admittedly controversial author Daniel Ingram): https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table…

Yeah, it came as a real shock to me at first. I had made many mistakes in my early meditation career. But I learned a lot more and suddenly started progressing. This was wonderful at first. I started to feel and experience some pretty mind-blowing things on the cushion at first and then extending well off the cushion into the rest of my life. Then... I remember random memories started to kind of pop into my awareness…

Wow, thanks for sharing. I have no advice to offer but maybe an experienced teacher could help.

I've experienced intense emotional swings like you describe but not the pain or pressure. The emotional swings at least were something I was able to get through, eventually. They were strong for a while but stopped with continued practice. I'm definitely still more sensitive than I was before. I feel both positive and negative feelings more intensely, but hold onto them less.

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#103

Post by Hasu »

vorpalhex wrote: post #95
Hasu wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can use Google, and found this [1] article claiming over 4 million DAUs for Calm in June of 2020, with trendlines going up and to the right. So the lower bound of your estimate gives us ~200,000 people who would be adversely affected. Looking through negative reviews, it's all complaints about pricing and paywalls. The same is true for Headspace, the second biggest app in this space (I don't have DAUs for them, but…

You're assuming the people having issues realize Calm is the source. Also a DAU is not always someone meditating.

Sure, it's a coarse and crude method that isn't perfect, but the point is that almost no one that practices "secular meditation" has any problems whatsoever - there is simply no good evidence supporting that meditation practice is dangerous in any way. The vast body of research available shows mild benefits.

The claimed hypothesis is absurd on its face. It's a wild and strong claim that needs strong evidence, so we don't need to be super precise here, if the effects were nearly as strong as 5-10%, we would see it.

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#104

Post by [deleted] »

bowsamic wrote: post #79
bstrom wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be interested in hearing more about why Ingram is considered a terrible resource, if you care to share.

One reason is that he broke a major taboo in publicly declaring himself an Arhat Then he has this book that is supposed to distil all of the powerful insight practises into a secular path, but everyone I’ve spoken to in his pragmatic dharma community is extremely toxic. It’s literally like the 4chan of Buddhism, huge amounts of racism, lots of depressed teens, very online, lots of people who think they are enlightene…

[deleted]

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#105

Post by vorpalhex »

Hasu wrote: post #103
vorpalhex wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming the people having issues realize Calm is the source. Also a DAU is not always someone meditating.

Sure, it's a coarse and crude method that isn't perfect, but the point is that almost no one that practices "secular meditation" has any problems whatsoever - there is simply no good evidence supporting that meditation practice is dangerous in any way. The vast body of research available shows mild benefits. The claimed hypothesis is absurd on its face. It's a wild and strong claim that needs strong evidence, so we d…

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32820538/

We don't have to engage in crude methodology. We have tons of research.

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#106

Post by bowsamic »

vorpalhex wrote: post #96
roody15 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: This is probably going to make me sound crazy but perhaps it’s fitting. In a deeply meditative state you can open up yourself to a spiritual state of perception. In this transcendental state you can attract other spiritual and ethereal entities. Not all of which are benevolent. Lots of the meditative mantras, prayers and rituals perhaps are meant to ward off negative entities and even perhaps attract comp…

Do you view this description as being literal or metaphorical?

It’s literal, else they would have said it’s not

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#107

Post by bowsamic »

titanomachy wrote: post #97
bowsamic wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Buddha never taught that those aspects are optional and every tradition has preserved them from India to China to Japan, until now! Why are we special that we can forgo all of the religious trappings? We aren’t Of course the teachings must be made to appeal to westerners. This does not mean totally gutting them People who won’t accept anything spiritual or religious don’t need this practise. In Buddhism we don’t…

I think there is a difference between accepting spiritual and religious practices. The illusion of self can be observed directly. Perhaps it's even an inevitable conclusion of sufficiently intense introspection. I'd consider observing this to be a spiritual practice. The metaphysics of realms of reincarnation, hungry ghosts, etc. is religious thought (and it was the dominant worldview when Siddhartha was born). These…

> The metaphysics of realms of reincarnation, hungry ghosts, etc. is religious thought (and it was the dominant worldview when Siddhartha was born)

Actually, he mostly invented them, they aren’t present in Vedic texts afaik. Also, he did perceive it independently: his insight became so great that he could see his past lives, and he taught that we can too if we follow the 8fp

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#108

Post by bowsamic »

Hasu wrote: post #103
vorpalhex wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming the people having issues realize Calm is the source. Also a DAU is not always someone meditating.

Sure, it's a coarse and crude method that isn't perfect, but the point is that almost no one that practices "secular meditation" has any problems whatsoever - there is simply no good evidence supporting that meditation practice is dangerous in any way. The vast body of research available shows mild benefits. The claimed hypothesis is absurd on its face. It's a wild and strong claim that needs strong evidence, so we d…

Is there good evidence suggesting it’s 100% completely safe?

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#109

Post by bowsamic »

taeric wrote: post #99
vorpalhex wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the harm data means you need to go pay a yogi $400 for lessons. I think we need to stop telling people meditation is a perfect little peaceful practice and instead treat it like ibuprofen. If you are meditating and you start feeling anxious or in a bad way.. stop. Stop meditating and go do something else. Maybe talk with a therapist. If you start feeling depersonalization.. stop meditating. You should i…

Amusingly, I am probably harsher on meditation than you seem to be. My stance is more that if you are otherwise healthy and making good choices, go for it. If you are wanting to use it as a treatment for problems/discontents in your life, expect that it won't help, and focusing on your problems is likely to lead to other problems. Comparing it to ibuprofen strikes me as begging the question that it has a mechanism. S…

I’m confused. Are you claiming that meditation might literally have no effect?

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#110

Post by taeric »

bowsamic wrote: post #109
taeric wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amusingly, I am probably harsher on meditation than you seem to be. My stance is more that if you are otherwise healthy and making good choices, go for it. If you are wanting to use it as a treatment for problems/discontents in your life, expect that it won't help, and focusing on your problems is likely to lead to other problems. Comparing it to ibuprofen strikes me as begging the question that it has a mechanism. S…

I’m confused. Are you claiming that meditation might literally have no effect?

Not literally zero effect. But I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the effect is the same as how propaganda works.

I take it as similar to inversion tables. Could it help some folks with their back pain? Absolutely. Does it do so for the reasons they put forward? Highly unlikely. (Acupuncture is similar. Homeopathy? Maybe...)

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