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Book Review: Progress and Poverty

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101–110 of 129 posts

Re: Book Review: Progress and Poverty

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem with it as presented in Progress and Poverty (i.e. as a Single Tax to fund the government budget, not some small supplementary levy to fund something like local services) is that the size of the tax bears relatively little relation to the ability of someone to pay it (at least, to pay it without selling their house). Turfing pensioners out of their house because the land it sits on gained in value…

> Turfing pensioners out of their house because the land it sits on gained in value faster than their pension This is a well-known canard. If someone can't pay their tax on a primary residence, you put a lien on the property that becomes enforceable when the ownership changes hands, whether by sale or inheritance. No one gets "thrown out" of their homes.

Proposing children are kicked out of family homes isn't necessarily more politically palatable, and deferrals introduce revenue issues (especially if LVT causes land value to fall over time, which is often mooted as an advantage by Georgists...)

But that's a minor issue compared with the second part of my post, which is that if a proposed tax reform reduces the tax burden on almost every corporation and high net worth individual (bar a few land speculators and domestic oil well owners), ordinary people have to pay more to the government or get less from the government. LVT might be perfectly viable as a tax, but as a Single Tax replacing the existing set of taxes (which arent exactly optimal from the point of progressitivity to start off with) it's a wealth transfer on an unprecedented scale from people whose wealth is mainly the property they bought (including the land it sits on) to people whose wealth is mainly the shares they own. The latter category is much richer than the former.

Re: Book Review: Progress and Poverty

#102
post #90

On a personal level, I like the LVT as a single tax because then I wouldn't have to do any paperwork. They give me a bill, I pay a bill, there's no exceptions, I can improve (or fuck up) my property, and overall the numbers won't change (unless a ton of people improve or fuck up their properties around me as well). Nice and easy. But it also seems effective overall. After I quit my last job and before I got my curren…

The trouble with value assessment is good enough to dismiss LVT altogether. I don't want to be forced to liquidate my house to cover LVT bill only because the land value shot up thanks to being a part of future promise from a developer project that doesn't have to fall through.

What? Assessing the value of land is a much simpler problem than processing income taxes or sales taxes or VAT.

Re: Book Review: Progress and Poverty

#103
post #83
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The transition is hard. I'm convinced it has to be both gradual and compensated.

Unlikely that georgist system would get adopted gradually. It never worked in history. Denmark georgist party (Justice party of Denmark) never got a strong popular support. When they got some attention and implemented georgist policies, vested interests would take the new gains and roll the policies back, capturing the profits only for themselves. There are pockets in the US which are adopting georgist policies out o…

Baden-Württemberg is adopting an LVT in Germany. It is just a matter of time until the co2 dividend is implemented.

Re: Book Review: Progress and Poverty

#104
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since all taxes are ultimately borne by land (specifically, by resources in fixed supply), it's not at all clear that compensation is required for a neutral tax shift.

Some people argue no compensation is required but I think in reality an LVT at 100% reduces the price of all land to $0. Given that land is substantial portion of retirement savings in our current economy, completely obliterating land prices without any compensation seems morally dubious. Perhaps if you do it slowly enough that you give everyone time to adjust and make the market adjustments gradual enough that peopl…

No, if land was worth $0 people would bid it up until the value of the land is how much they are willing to pay per year in taxes.

Re: Book Review: Progress and Poverty

#105
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is arguing for a literal 100% LVT. You'd want to still leave a fraction of land rent (say 10% or so) untaxed, since this introduces a desirable market mechanism in property assessment - and George even acknowledges this. What's nutty is to let land speculators capture all of that value for no real reason.

I think the group that is capturing the most value is actually landlords, followed by speculators. I also agree that 90% LVT may be better in practice, although I do know people who still argue for 100% and various auction mechanisms to determine the LVT.

Silvio Gesell proposed an auction mechanism but I honestly don't care about the details. You can lease land. Tax it or auction it off. There are so many good enough solutions that one does not have to be picky.

Re: Book Review: Progress and Poverty

#106
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the group that is capturing the most value is actually landlords, followed by speculators. I also agree that 90% LVT may be better in practice, although I do know people who still argue for 100% and various auction mechanisms to determine the LVT.

As much as I think LVT makes sense, having to go to some sort of annual auction for my own land does seem worse than just paying taxes. Along with that being a tedious process, that could put you at the mercy of malicious actors who may just dislike you and have enough cash to outbid you. Any implementation would have to not include this for people to be able to have stable lives.

A yearly auction is overkill. Do it every 5-10 years with a fee the longer you delay the next auction. (Like banks charge more interest the longer a fixed rate loan is)

Re: Book Review: Progress and Poverty

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since all taxes are ultimately borne by land (specifically, by resources in fixed supply), it's not at all clear that compensation is required for a neutral tax shift.

> Since all taxes are ultimately borne by land ... Objection, your honor. Assumes facts not in evidence. How is income tax ultimately borne by land? Sales tax? Inheritance tax? Gasoline tax? Corporate income tax on corporations like SpaceX, Goldman Sachs, and Intel? "Ultimately borne by land" may have made sense a century or three ago, when (almost) all income ultimately came from the land. That's not the world we li…

How do you plan on existing without a universe, without any laws of physics? Ownership of land extends into the ground and into the sky. You are owning a slice of the universe. The earth is conveniently located near a nuclear fusion reactor the energy it radiates is embodied in the value of land on earth. The value of land on Pluto is very low. Nobody wants to live there. The fossil or nuclear fuels you dig out to power your car or fridge are ultimately born from land. Energy is derived from what is below our feet and extraction rights are literally the ownership of land.

>How is income tax ultimately borne by land? Sales tax? Inheritance tax? Gasoline tax? Corporate income tax on corporations like SpaceX, Goldman Sachs, and Intel?

Gasoline must be refined from crude oil which is extracted from land.

SpaceX needs aluminium, steel and rocket fuel which all must be extracted from land.

Goldman Sachs just manages incomes derived from land.

Intel obviously depends on an uncountable number of chemical compounds derived from the land

Re: Book Review: Progress and Poverty

#108
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since all taxes are ultimately borne by land ... Objection, your honor. Assumes facts not in evidence. How is income tax ultimately borne by land? Sales tax? Inheritance tax? Gasoline tax? Corporate income tax on corporations like SpaceX, Goldman Sachs, and Intel? "Ultimately borne by land" may have made sense a century or three ago, when (almost) all income ultimately came from the land. That's not the world we li…

If you take the view that "land" is where all the matter on earth comes from, it kinda makes sense. It's the strictest interpretation of materialism I've ever heard, though; there would be nothing of value without input of the sun's energy.

The exact proximity of earth to the sun is what gives the land on earth value. In fact, this implies that humans did none of the work, they just took what was already there and labeled it their own.

Re: Book Review: Progress and Poverty

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Turfing pensioners out of their house because the land it sits on gained in value faster than their pension This is a well-known canard. If someone can't pay their tax on a primary residence, you put a lien on the property that becomes enforceable when the ownership changes hands, whether by sale or inheritance. No one gets "thrown out" of their homes.

Proposing children are kicked out of family homes isn't necessarily more politically palatable, and deferrals introduce revenue issues (especially if LVT causes land value to fall over time, which is often mooted as an advantage by Georgists...) But that's a minor issue compared with the second part of my post, which is that if a proposed tax reform reduces the tax burden on almost every corporation and high net wort…

"Corporations" don't bear the incidence of any tax, they merely pass it along to something else. And taxing high net worth individuals on their savings reduces investment significantly, making everyone worse off. That's why it makes sense to single out "land"-like assets for taxation in the first place. Much of the value locked in "shares" is itself land, and would of course be taxed. Unlike with ordinary corporate taxes, the impact of this would unambiguously fall on the owners.

Re: Book Review: Progress and Poverty

#110
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Georgists get around this issue by abolishing income taxes entirely. Regardless, I think there are fundamental differences between the two cases. Most notably land doesn’t have freedom of choice the way people do. We also currently tax land based on its market value which corresponds to the most productive use of the land so LVT doesn’t change this.

>> land doesn’t have freedom of choice the way people do I mean that's your best argument, but it's not as clear cut as that to me. What I do with my property and what I do with my labor are both matters of freedom of choice. But yeah, I get you. I don't want to be told what to do with my labor. But I don't want to be told what to do with my land either. >> We also currently tax land based on its market value which c…

The portion of property taxes that tax the land tax it at its market price though. And we know from economics that the market price is set based on the best economic use. So the entirety of your disagreement seems to be “we also tax buildings” not that the portion of the tax on land doesn’t work the way I said.

What you do with your labour is a strong right that is deeply connected to bodily autonomy. Bodily autonomy rights come from nature and shouldn’t be violated by society.

What you do with your land is a weak right that is socially constructed and depends on the society that defined the rules under which land acquisition made sense.

There is a stronger moral basis for taxing land than there is for taxing labour. There is also a stronger moral basis for restricting land use than for restricting labour. Despite your efforts to paint them as the same, these two things are in fact very different.

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