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Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

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Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#101
post #95
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, look at the figures for percentage of people who believe something really whacky: creationism. Something like 40% ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/20/40-of-americans-sti... ). It's going to be hard to have a national curriculum without either watering down subjects like biology or US history to the point that they're totally useless, just rote memorization of falsehoods.

Really, simply believing in creationism does not conflict with most science, even biological science, and certainly not with US history. Of the 40% who believe in creationism (accepting your claim, though the source I'd certainly not consider unbiased), most have mainstream religious beliefs about the origin of the universe, earth, and life, but do not dismiss most of what science has learned in fields like medicine,…

simply believing in creationism does not conflict with most science, even biological science,

To the contrary, taking the Sunday school story (it's not really the Bible story) of creation seriously as an explanation for the world's origin or the origin of species requires willfully massive amounts of scientific evidence.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/age.html

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-playing-field/201005...

If someone who takes the Sunday school story of creation seriously has sole influence on a school curriculum, that will be a lousy school curriculum about most areas of science. That said, I support the liberty of parents to direct the education of their own children while their children are minors, believing with John Stuart Mill that "A general State education is a mere contrivance for moulding people to be exactly like one another: and as the mould in which it casts them is that which pleases the predominant power in the government, whether this be a monarch, a priesthood, an aristocracy, or the majority of the existing generation in proportion as it is efficient and successful, it establishes a despotism over the mind, leading by a natural tendency to one over the body. An education established and controlled by the State should only exist, if it exist at all, as one among many competing experiments, carried on for the purpose of example and stimulus, to keep others up to a certain standard of excellence." On Liberty (1859), pp. 190-91. But within the framework of pluralism in provision of primary education, I strongly support government-funded schools using the best available evidence in designing curricula in science, mathematics, history, and really any subject, and that takes creationism out of the science curriculum.

(Basis of knowledge: I grew up in a religious denomination that promoted belief in creationism, and had a childhood friend, an all-but-Ph.D. electrical engineer, who grew up in a denomination that demanded belief in creationism. He took me to "creation science" conferences beginning at high school age, and I have read much from all sides on theories of the origin of humankind, the earth, and the universe. Creationism simply has no leg to stand on scientifically. I don't require my homeschooled children to believe in creationism, but rather read aloud to them books like Why Evolution is True by Jerry Coyne and The Greatest Show on Earth by Richard Dawkins, so that they are more familiar with scientific evidence than most of their neighbors who attend the local public schools.)

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#102
post #50
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow the Finnish school system costs less per pupil per year than the U.S. one. I don't see why a suggestion to concentrate on more important things is responded to by demanding more money. Money can improve some things, some things can be improved without money.

I suspect an abundance of social infrastructure (4% of children living in poverty vs 15%, per the article) acts as an unaccounted for subsidy for education - and for much else as well.

Living poor but having dignity seems to be impossible in the US?

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#103
post #99
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to mainly address universities, which were out of scope for this article. OECD PISA is measuring 15-year-old students. There is a huge difference in the level of teaching at compulsory schools and universities in Finland. "People are not much interested in learning in schools" is a gross overstatement and generalization. There are those who are very motivated, those who are not motivated at all and the major…

"You seem to mainly address universities, which were out of scope for this article. OECD PISA is measuring 15-year-old students. There is a huge difference in the level of teaching at compulsory schools and universities in Finland." Actually the opposite. The university system follows pretty much the same paradigm of equality and fair quality. There really is no shitty universities (at least within the institutions w…

Hey, I remember you from HUT circa 2006.

I was comparing the level of primary and upper secondary school teaching with university teaching, not different universities. Seems like university rankings have little to do with that.

For what it's worth, I maintain that the quality of teaching drops by a whole lot in universities, if only because there are way fever universities around in Finland. My personal experience (some of which you share) is that in some common subjects (like maths) the group size in lectures more than quadrupled in the first year—way too many students for the lecturer to spare any individual attention, apart from answering some questions that came up in the class. Even the word changes from teacher to lecturer, reflecting quite well on the changed focus.

This duty of individual attention falls on TAs in smaller student groups, who usually have no pedagogical studies behind them and often resist taking any share of responsibility in how their students perform. The lack of attention to students is known and acknowledged, even marketed as 'academic freedom' and 'having to take responsibility for one's own studies'. While it's imporant to learn how to do that, the quality of teaching should not suffer as markedly as it does. Some struggling students banded together to overcome the steeply increased difficulty curve and others dropped out from the courses, often after the very first few weeks.

Speaking of catering to individuals, it would not take much to improve the life of an advanced upper secondary school student by a whole lot. Let the advanced students advance to freshman level concepts. Instead we faced the "it's not in the teaching plan" paralysis. It feels stupid to do three years of upper secondary level physics without touching vectors or calculus. Or bring out the matrices and linear algebra in maths (instead of showing a small glimpse in one elective course during the third year). Allow and even recommend some more advanced books on the topic. It must be better than playing Tetris on your Ti-83 calculator all day. Many currently bored students would regain some of the lost morale and momentum this way.

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#104
This is a Swedish guy examining the issue, resolves most of the questions in comments here:

"What is so special about education in Finland? An outsider’s view" By Peter Fredriksson in 2006. www.nek.uu.se/StaffPages/Publ/P949.doc

(Sorry, it's a doc file). Results over time (USA has worsened), immigration (it's not about it), underachievers (less of them in Finland).

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#105
post #103
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You seem to mainly address universities, which were out of scope for this article. OECD PISA is measuring 15-year-old students. There is a huge difference in the level of teaching at compulsory schools and universities in Finland." Actually the opposite. The university system follows pretty much the same paradigm of equality and fair quality. There really is no shitty universities (at least within the institutions w…

Hey, I remember you from HUT circa 2006. I was comparing the level of primary and upper secondary school teaching with university teaching, not different universities. Seems like university rankings have little to do with that. For what it's worth, I maintain that the quality of teaching drops by a whole lot in universities, if only because there are way fever universities around in Finland. My personal experience (s…

All true.

That is to say, that the average standards around the world are not that great either. Higher education could be better, but it is far from worst of what I've seen.

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#106

" I am troubled by this “lacks diversity” argument, because it implies that African-American and Hispanic children cannot benefit by having highly experienced teachers, small classes, and a curriculum rich in the arts and activities." I don't agree with this. The "lacks diversity" argument doesn't imply that minorities can't benefit from experienced teachers - it means that teachers have more trouble with a heterogen…

This is why discussing issues involving racial or cultural diversity is so hard: indignation temporarily destroys people's reading comprehension and ability to think straight.

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't consider language important in conveying ideas, thinking, etc?

What are you talking about?

> The only part of education where the language matters is when it comes to spelling

What about differences between languages in their ability to convey ideas.

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#108
post #64

The problem is that what works in Finland won't necessarily work elsewhere. For example in Finland teach is a high prestige job in a large part because Finland doesn't have the range or number of alternative professional careers available that countries like the US have.

What is this based on? For someone living in Finland, this seems very far from the truth.

http://www.stat.fi/tup/suoluk/suoluk_tyoelama_en.html

The education sector in Finland employs a disproportionately large number of professionals compared to many other countries. In comparison a male graduate in the uk chosen at random is more likely to be a software developer than a teacher.

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#109
post #48
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is more likely to be culture or (more controversially) genetics. Perhaps not genetics, but (also controversially) perhaps 'diversity' is over-rated. Many of the least diverse countries enjoy such positive results. The U.S. slips further and further as it gets more diverse.

Canada's got at least the diversity the US has, and yet regularly ranks quite high in worldwide educational standards. Edit: added the following link http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-ed...

Canada is far less diverse than the US. Canada is about 90% white, the US is about 68% white. And most minorities in Canada are screened for education/intelligence before arrival, whereas in the US most minorities are a byproduct of the transatlantic slave trade/illegal immigration

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#110
post #109
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada's got at least the diversity the US has, and yet regularly ranks quite high in worldwide educational standards. Edit: added the following link http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-ed...

Canada is far less diverse than the US. Canada is about 90% white, the US is about 68% white. And most minorities in Canada are screened for education/intelligence before arrival, whereas in the US most minorities are a byproduct of the transatlantic slave trade/illegal immigration

I guess it depends on what you consider 'diverse'. You seem to only consider skin colour.

Besides, Canada is more like 80% 'white' vs 72% in the US.

An interesting tidbit you may not know is that less then 60% of Canadians speak English as their mother tongue, vs 82% in the US.

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