Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation • Hacker News Board

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#101

Post by dehrmann » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #67

zo1 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those sound like awesome potential features. Allow users to assign 0-100% weights for each of those scoring adjustments during search,and show them the calcs (if you can).

Supposedly there's thousands of different features that are scored, and those are just the rolled-up categories that needed their own separate ML pipeline step. Like, maybe, for example, a feature is "this site has a favicon.ico that is unique and not used elsewhere" (page quality). Or "this page has ads, but they are below the fold" (page layout). Or "this site has > X amount of inbound links from a hand curated lis…

> and those are just the rolled-up categories that needed their own separate ML pipeline step.

AKA ensemble models.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#102

Post by bratwurst3000 » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 5:03 PM UTC

einszwei wrote: post #62

tjbiddle wrote: post #25

> “Dark patterns” — confusing or deceptive user interfaces designed to steer users into making certain choices — will be prohibited. The EU says that, as a rule, cancelling subscriptions should be as easy as signing up for them. This is an excellent addition.

I am very tired of the cookie/tracking popups on many websites that don't have option to "reject all" but just "accept all" and "customise". Main example being Google Search. Looking at this, I am hopeful but not too optimistic.

The « i dont care about coockies » plugin for firefox is superb at geting rid of that problem

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#103

Post by narrator » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 5:06 PM UTC

"We run it through our deep learning model. Here's 50 gigabytes of neural net weights."

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#104

Post by hairofadog » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 5:06 PM UTC

somewhereoutth wrote: post #34

A good start. However let's go further, simply ban personal tracking and personalized algorithmic feeds. This would combat the echo chamber effect and social media can become a broad community experience, like TV and newspapers. It would also cripple tech advertising revenues, thus redressing the balance with traditional media.

One of the things that frustrates me about discussions of censorship here on HN is that there’s a lot of intense focus on censorship via deleting a tweet or Facebook post, but no focus given to the more insidious problem of censorship by algorithm.

I am wholeheartedly in favor of a free marketplace of ideas where (we would hope) good ideas win out over bad, but as it is, once you’re deemed by an algorithm to be susceptible to a certain category of extremist information, that’s all you’re ever going to see again; the competing ideas are never going to have a chance.

Algorithmic distribution of ideas is sorta like distributing ideas via gasoline-powered leaf blower directly to the face. I am free to speak my competing ideas, and so technically I haven’t been censored, but no audience is going to hear me over the leaf blower.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#105

Post by bratwurst3000 » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 5:07 PM UTC

tjbiddle wrote: post #25

> “Dark patterns” — confusing or deceptive user interfaces designed to steer users into making certain choices — will be prohibited. The EU says that, as a rule, cancelling subscriptions should be as easy as signing up for them. This is an excellent addition.

Windows is fuckinh the worst at this. The whole system experience is at some point „ please login to the mircrosoft produkt you never signed for“ or whatever new noninteresting feature they have. That there isnt something like a windows version striped off that stuff is a shame .

Oh and firewall or defender that puts a big !! Everywhere so it seems that my system will explode anytime

Are they aware that people use it for working?

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#106

Post by Terretta » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

bgro wrote: post #48

tjbiddle wrote: post #25

> “Dark patterns” — confusing or deceptive user interfaces designed to steer users into making certain choices — will be prohibited. The EU says that, as a rule, cancelling subscriptions should be as easy as signing up for them. This is an excellent addition.

Remember when Xbox let you sign up for Live online, but you had to do a 3 hour interrogation on the phone to cancel? And calls would cost like 25 cents a minute or something crazy. Or the auto renewing subscriptions that either cancel your service immediately the second you turn off auto renew, even if you paid for the current time allotment, or they just prevent or ignore your request to not renew. I feel like rever…

Or DirecTV recently:

“Hey we couldn’t process your card due to a temporary error so we went ahead and cancelled your $59 for AllTheThings plan you had for the last 10 years as a loyal customer. We’re very much not at all sorry that plan isn’t available any more. Now AllTheThings costs $129, but don’t worry, just click to reactivate, we’ll try your card again.” … “AllTheThings processed successfully for $129, thank you for your custom.”

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#107

Post by tjoff » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

wrboyce wrote: post #94

joe_guy wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple makes money off the interchange fee. It might be "free" to the end user, but the corporate motivation is the same as Prime's -- money. And please don't ad hominem attack people you're responding to.

Yeah you’re right, there was no need for the last bit. I’m still struggling to see the relevance though, trying to get me to buy things is very different from trying to get me to use a feature you profit from (in my opinion). You also have to bare in mind that HN represents the more technical users, plenty of people probably do need the popups to discover these features. Saying that, a “no thanks, don’t remind me aga…

Feature you profit from?

You feel you profit from facebook tracking as well?

Regardless, these dark patterns are truly disgusting and how some can defend them so mindlessly just because they apparently found a use for a product is quite disturbing.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#108

Post by andrei_says_ » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 5:21 PM UTC

nottorp wrote: post #86

einszwei wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very tired of the cookie/tracking popups on many websites that don't have option to "reject all" but just "accept all" and "customise". Main example being Google Search. Looking at this, I am hopeful but not too optimistic.

> I am very tired of the cookie/tracking popups on many websites that don't have option to "reject all" but just "accept all" and "customise". Main example being Google Search. And The Verge on this very article :)

The people writing the articles are different from the MBAs forcing the financial and technological decisions.

“Integrity” has different meanings for each group. For the latter, the meaning is likely closer to “bring in enough revenue to keep the publication running.” Applying dark patterns does not conflict with this.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#109

Post by visarga » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 5:23 PM UTC

hairofadog wrote: post #104

somewhereoutth wrote: post #34

A good start. However let's go further, simply ban personal tracking and personalized algorithmic feeds. This would combat the echo chamber effect and social media can become a broad community experience, like TV and newspapers. It would also cripple tech advertising revenues, thus redressing the balance with traditional media.

One of the things that frustrates me about discussions of censorship here on HN is that there’s a lot of intense focus on censorship via deleting a tweet or Facebook post, but no focus given to the more insidious problem of censorship by algorithm. I am wholeheartedly in favor of a free marketplace of ideas where (we would hope) good ideas win out over bad, but as it is, once you’re deemed by an algorithm to be susce…

We need to get some level of control over the criteria for ranking and filtering. A third one is the UI - it is the place where all sort of dark patterns hide.

I'd like to see the browser put in a sandbox and its inputs/outputs sanitised and de-biased before being presented to the user. Could also protect privacy more. We need more browser innovation. A neural net should be in every browser ready to apply semantic rules.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#110

Post by einszwei » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 5:26 PM UTC

jsnell wrote: post #82

einszwei wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very tired of the cookie/tracking popups on many websites that don't have option to "reject all" but just "accept all" and "customise". Main example being Google Search. Looking at this, I am hopeful but not too optimistic.

From a couple of days ago: https://blog.google/around-the-globe/google-europe/new-cooki...

Wow, best UX change from Google in sometime now.