Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken • Hacker News Board

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#101

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 22, 2022, 4:48 PM UTC

jedimastert wrote: post #78

kache_ wrote: post #22

I've been privy to people trying to ban words like "whitelabel" at my company. Thankfully, management & executives at my company never stood for that BS so I still get to use whitelist & blacklist in documentation, and don't worry about those non-issues get in the way of me actually doing work. Google might be too far gone, and working with those people would be so exhausting that it's actually stopped me from applyi…

Silly question: ignoring any kind of history, why fight for terms like "whitelist" and "blacklist" when terms like "allowlist" and "blocklist" are objectively clearer, especially for folks who's first language is not English?

[deleted]

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#102

Post by thorncorona » Fri, Apr 22, 2022, 4:48 PM UTC

ironSkillet wrote: post #53

john_moscow wrote: post #6

Well, such things are always driven by demand. And unfortunately, there is a strong demand in our society for policing words, renaming formulas and issuing apologies all while: * Property ownership is becoming out of question for an increasing fraction of Americans * Any kid of retirement (as in not having to work and enjoying life off your savings) has become a pipe dream * Having a single-income family with one par…

What I don't understand is, where is this perceived demand coming from? I think it is an extremely small minority that happens to be extremely loud on social media and in corporate circles, so the perception of how important this issue is has become grossly exaggerated. I don't think this is purposeful malice on anyone's part, I think it is just a product of social media amplification and the elites desire to constan…

This is an example of where the Twittersphere has outsized influence.

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#103

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 22, 2022, 4:48 PM UTC

mgraczyk wrote: post #9

In the article they use the example of "Motherboard" and "Landlord" and seem to suggest that these are areas where the Google AI is making mistakes or being overly strict. As a Google employee expressing my own opinion and observations of company culture, I can say that these are 100% not mistakes. Many Google employees are just so out of touch with the real world that they believe it is the duty of Google Docs to ch…

[deleted]

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#104

Post by dekhn » Fri, Apr 22, 2022, 4:48 PM UTC

knorker wrote: post #94

dekhn wrote: post #13

One of the reasons I left google is that their "content moderation team" (the folks who make you take down wrongthink memes) is so far out of touch, that somebody had to explain to them there are people in the world who are discriminated against, but aren't black. They simply didn't know that was the case! And if that's the people who are moderating content... I said motherboard all the time in meetings and chats, ne…

> I said motherboard all the time in meetings and chats, never had any pushback. TBH if I did get pushback on that one, I'd bring it to HR and say the pushback was affecting my ability to get work down. And get Damore'd?

I'm not worried about being Damore'd, as I have a lot more experience fighting progressives than he does.

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#105

Post by knorker » Fri, Apr 22, 2022, 4:49 PM UTC

olalonde wrote: post #42

mgraczyk wrote: post #9

In the article they use the example of "Motherboard" and "Landlord" and seem to suggest that these are areas where the Google AI is making mistakes or being overly strict. As a Google employee expressing my own opinion and observations of company culture, I can say that these are 100% not mistakes. Many Google employees are just so out of touch with the real world that they believe it is the duty of Google Docs to ch…

Reminds me of when GitHub stopped using "master" for the default branch because it was somehow offensive.

Reminds me of when GitHub kicked out a paying customer for using the word "retard" as a verb in the mathematical sense.

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#106

Post by _fat_santa » Fri, Apr 22, 2022, 4:49 PM UTC

kache_ wrote: post #22

I've been privy to people trying to ban words like "whitelabel" at my company. Thankfully, management & executives at my company never stood for that BS so I still get to use whitelist & blacklist in documentation, and don't worry about those non-issues get in the way of me actually doing work. Google might be too far gone, and working with those people would be so exhausting that it's actually stopped me from applyi…

My problem with all of this "progressiveness" in the workplace is that it just reeks of laziness.

There are real problems in this world, yet it seems that the progressives are going after the minute details. From a SWE perspective, it would be like your app getting crushed by bugs and technical debt while you argue over how big the logo on the login page should be.

The worst part of all of this, is the companies that are actively pushing this crap are the same companies that have the resources to make a difference in this world.

If you're a company with a 1T+ market cap, actually do something bold with your cash. Imagine if all the top tech companies approached a bunch of non-profits trying to help people in 3rd world countries and said: "here's a blank check, do what you need to". We could solve a shitload of problems on this planet.

But no, we all are just quibbling about our pronouns and how to write "inclusively".

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#107

Post by kache_ » Fri, Apr 22, 2022, 4:49 PM UTC

jedimastert wrote: post #78

kache_ wrote: post #22

I've been privy to people trying to ban words like "whitelabel" at my company. Thankfully, management & executives at my company never stood for that BS so I still get to use whitelist & blacklist in documentation, and don't worry about those non-issues get in the way of me actually doing work. Google might be too far gone, and working with those people would be so exhausting that it's actually stopped me from applyi…

Silly question: ignoring any kind of history, why fight for terms like "whitelist" and "blacklist" when terms like "allowlist" and "blocklist" are objectively clearer, especially for folks who's first language is not English?

I don't mind those words, and I don't really fight for them. I use the words I use out of habit. I just think that the mismatch in effort/spun cycles on those terms by the routine vocal minority is a testament to how detached to reality these people are

The things that worry me are the witch hunts started by the same group of people. See my other comment on "fren"

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#108

Post by user3939382 » Fri, Apr 22, 2022, 4:49 PM UTC

mgraczyk wrote: post #9

In the article they use the example of "Motherboard" and "Landlord" and seem to suggest that these are areas where the Google AI is making mistakes or being overly strict. As a Google employee expressing my own opinion and observations of company culture, I can say that these are 100% not mistakes. Many Google employees are just so out of touch with the real world that they believe it is the duty of Google Docs to ch…

If we're going to play this game, I think dissuading people from using "mother" in the example of "motherboard" is offensive. Mothers are the source of human life on earth, and in that capacity are revered and honored. When we say motherboard, we're making an analogy that suggests the board's significance and universal connection to everything.

To discourage the term as an analogy for things that are a universal source is to demote women and their role as mothers.

I'd like to know who at Google puts these lists together and what judge decreed their viewpoint on this more valid than mine or anyone else's, since apparently Google feels that from this judgement they have the right to shape speech for millions of people and therefore, by extension, our culture.

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#109

Post by nmilo » Fri, Apr 22, 2022, 4:49 PM UTC

chrisfosterelli wrote: post #61

> Cutting phrases like “whitelist/blacklist” and “master/slave” out of our vocabulary not only addresses years of habitual bias in tech terminology, but forces us as writers and researchers to be more creative with the way we describe things. > calling landlords “property owners” is almost worse than calling them “landchads,” and half as accurate. It’s catering to people like Howard Schultz who would prefer you not c…

I think you're misreading. Nowhere in the article did the author say she "liked the tool" for removing whitelist/blacklist.

Re: Google’s AI-powered ‘inclusive warnings’ feature is very broken

#110

Post by Kylekramer » Fri, Apr 22, 2022, 4:49 PM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #86

Kylekramer wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I object to "articles" that are essentially just popular tweets puffed up. Don't think that is good journalism and don't think it needs much more detail.

I mean, I'm confused why you think the vice authors live in a world where landlord is a slur. It's not. It's a commonly used term and a small number of progressive individuals have manipulated the media and their followers into thinking it's terrible. But it isn't. Hence, my request as to why you think the Vice authors "wanted to use a slur", since it isn't.

Cause I have worked in NYC media and know that Vice writers use "landlord" as an insult?

The impetus for this piece was someone wrote a tweet that got very popular implying Google is somehow trying to cover for "landlords" by calling them "property owners". Vice writers are upset about that and would prefer to use "landlord" cause in their culture it has a negative connotation.