HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed] • Hacker News Board

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#101

Post by briandear » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 1:32 AM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #10

Andoryuuta wrote: post #8

This same DMCA company (WorthIT Solutions) previously tried to DMCA the php docs range function page on behalf of HackerRank [0]. Pretty crazy. [0]: https://www.mail-archive.com/php-webmaster@lists.php.net/msg...

One way for HackerRank to do the right thing would be to sue WorthIT for breach of contract and loss of reputation. Their contract must have included some requirements for due diligence on filing those notices, and having these bogus DMCA notices does hurt HackerRank’s reputation, especially with its target audience. Only way to make this stop is make companies like WorthIT feel financial pain from their actions.

Another way to make it stop is for companies to stop using HackerRank.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#102

Post by bfz » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 1:33 AM UTC

haltingproblem wrote: post #95

travisoliphant wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for showing up here and replying. I can understand the net being cast too wide for a real problem you are trying to solve. It does have real consequences for already under-resourced communities, though. I appreciate the "fix-it-twice" attitude implied by the RCA promise (Root Cause Analysis for those who also had to look it up). Also, consider recognition and restitution for the unnecessary work you created fo…

Quoted post unavailable.

Travis is the creator of NumPy.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#103

Post by oscarbenjamin » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 1:33 AM UTC

rvivek wrote: post #37

Hello, I'm Vivek, founder/CEO of HackerRank. Our intention with this initiative is to takedown plagiarized code snippets or solutions to company assessments. This was definitely an unintended consequence. We are looking into it ASAP and also going to do an RCA to ensure this doesn't happen again. Sorry, everyone! EDIT: update here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31092085

Thanks Vivek for responding. Speaking as one of the maintainers of SymPy (who received the DCMA takedown request by email) I would like to note some points:

1. If you do a web search for "HackerRank DMCA" you will find similar examples of this that have happened in the past (with exactly the same text).

2. The text of the request is not in any way designed to enable a reasonable response. No detail is given about what the infringing content is so there is no way to comply.

3. It is also clear from this and previous cases that whatever process is used to identify potential targets for DMCA yields false positives and no reasonable judgement seems to be applied in whether or not to issue a takedown request.

I also think that GitHub's processes are faulty here:

1. We were given one business day to reply. I replied within 2hrs to say that the request was obviously spam and then sought legal advice. The repo (and website) were shut down before we could get legal advice. One day is nowhere near enough time. The request came in on Thursday night (UK time) and in the UK both Friday and Monday are public holidays this weekend. I don't even know what one "business day" means in this situation.

2. GitHub gives some guidance for how to submit a counter claim but none of the information is applicable to a case like this where so little information is given that is simultaneously impossible to comply with the request and impossible to dispute it. If GitHub makes it this easy to spam DMCA requests then they should also provide some guidance for how to deal with spam requests.

I wonder if the FSF or someone else can come up with a good template response to DMCA requests that just don't have enough information in them. If the request doesn't even explain how you could comply then it should be possible to respond to that in a blanket fashion.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#104

Post by not2b » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 1:34 AM UTC

gurjeet wrote: post #41

jzer0cool wrote: post #23

What was the exact part DMCA'ed? Was it documentation? I am curious also here about opensource. What was the license if any? Also, which license allows you to copy (and modify) for your own use, whether personal or not to reproduce?

This is the archived copy of the URL in the takedown notice. https://web.archive.org/web/20220114132753/https://docs.symp...

If this was the page that triggered the takedown, any copying was probably in the reverse direction (that is, the HackerRank material copied something from the documentation, which is legal, and their idiot copyright enforcer doesn't understand that).

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#105

Post by jolux » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 1:34 AM UTC

SeanLuke wrote: post #77

gfd wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't copyright algorithmic code snippets . It's like trying to copyright math. You will have an insane amount of false positive from every repository that have ever implemented a prefix sum or binary search. (Or anything autocompleted using github copilot or alphacode which I believe is trained on competitive programming styled submissions from codeforces and atcoder) The solution would be to build some sort of…

> You can't copyright algorithmic code snippets. It's like trying to copyright math. You might first investigate just how small the piece of code was on which nearly all of Oracle's case vs. Google rested. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11722514

This is a misunderstanding of the case, as rayiner’s comment in that thread attests. That code was not the only code that was copied, there were also tens of thousands of lines of interface code that were the same. The case rested on whether the interface code was copyrightable. Oracle used that smaller sample as evidence that Google had copied carelessly from copyrighted material.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#106

Post by not2b » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 1:35 AM UTC

djrogers wrote: post #30

elefantastisch wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not GitHub's decision. It's the way the law works. They have a thorough explanation with links to viewpoints challenging DMCA on the submitted page.

They can legally reinstate the pages with a simple counter-claim / attestation though, but they don’t seem to have implemented that feature of the DMCA yet.

They have to wait 10 days if the people who filed the notice don't respond.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#107

Post by MarkMarine » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 1:35 AM UTC

jeroenhd wrote: post #78

rvivek wrote: post #37

Hello, I'm Vivek, founder/CEO of HackerRank. Our intention with this initiative is to takedown plagiarized code snippets or solutions to company assessments. This was definitely an unintended consequence. We are looking into it ASAP and also going to do an RCA to ensure this doesn't happen again. Sorry, everyone! EDIT: update here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31092085

Are you seriously claiming copyright over other people's solutions? You have *no* right, legally or ethically, to exercise any kind of control over "solutions to company assessments" under the DMCA. At worst, you can try to exercise the controls in the EULA that your victims agreed to, but this sounds like abuse of the legal system.

But it's working. Here is a DCMA the author tried to fight, saying hacker rank doesn't publish their solutions, and the solution is the sole work of the author: https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/ea3736a0c4c9574e0c8cea06...

guess what, it's still offline for DCMA.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#108

Post by MarkMarine » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 1:36 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #83

rvivek wrote: post #37

Hello, I'm Vivek, founder/CEO of HackerRank. Our intention with this initiative is to takedown plagiarized code snippets or solutions to company assessments. This was definitely an unintended consequence. We are looking into it ASAP and also going to do an RCA to ensure this doesn't happen again. Sorry, everyone! EDIT: update here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31092085

> is to takedown plagiarized code snippets or solutions to company assessments So which is it? Plagiarized or solutions? Because unless your company actually owns the copyright for the code in question, you have no right to it. If a Google assessment asks “how many manhole covers are there in New York” and someone decides to create a repo with “Manhole covers in New York: 23,000” there is no copyright claim. Do Hacke…

But it's working. Here is a DCMA the author tried to fight, saying hacker rank doesn't publish their solutions, and the solution is the sole work of the author:

https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/ea3736a0c4c9574e0c8cea06...

it's still offline for DCMA, since Dec '21

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#109

Post by RachelF » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 1:37 AM UTC

paranoidrobot wrote: post #85

rvivek wrote: post #37

Hello, I'm Vivek, founder/CEO of HackerRank. Our intention with this initiative is to takedown plagiarized code snippets or solutions to company assessments. This was definitely an unintended consequence. We are looking into it ASAP and also going to do an RCA to ensure this doesn't happen again. Sorry, everyone! EDIT: update here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31092085

> plagiarized code snippets I'm looking at the page that was taken down[1] and it seems to be largely full of pretty basic code snippets demonstrating how to use the Solvers module. Your DMCA request[2] includes the statements that say, in part, that Fair Use has been considered, that you own the copyright, and that the information in that statement is true and accurate. Could you elaborate what on that page you cons…

I wonder how many of the HackerRank questions are themselves plagiarized from other places?

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#110

Post by doh » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 1:37 AM UTC

jfarmer wrote: post #49

zomglings wrote: post #38

I apologize in advance for the profanity. This really pissed me off. FUCK you HackerRank, for even entertaining the notion of litigating open source projects at scale for no good reason. FUCK you for taking down the the documentation for a harmless open source symbolic mathematics engine without any justification that I can see. What content of your shitty ranking company could SymPy possibly have infringed on? Also…

Fuck the DMCA, not GitHub! AFAIK, they're legally required to take down material as soon as they receive a DMCA notice or else lose their safe harbor status. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notice_and_take_down

That is not technically correct. There is no definition "as soon as they receive it". In fact the law calls for "expeditiously or remove" access. Courts confirmed many times that days or weeks is considered expeditious.

Github could've easily take the time and wait for SymPy to file counter notice which then allows Github to keep the content up up until courts say otherwise. Github instead elected to remove content immediately. By their choice.