Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

driving.ca

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 111 posts

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#101

Post by giantg2 »

chx wrote: post #97
giantg2 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what is the plan for EVs there if the infrastructure can't handle it?

That's why you need to have it in gas stations because for in the short term future I can't see downtown having an abundance of chargers. As I noted, the other substations which are not on the peninsula are fine. Look: https://www.google.com/maps/search/bc+hydro+substations+in+v... the Dal Grauer Substation is so old it is a heritage building!

But you just said there are no gas stations left on the peninsula. How are gas stations with a few chargers in other areas going to help when it takes hours to charge?

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#102

Post by adhocmobility »

brewdad wrote: post #70
adhocmobility wrote: post #52

Waiting anywhere while your car is charging seems like an awful user experience. I've always imagined that a quick battery swap service would become the standard. Don't know how feasible it is though, maybe someone can shed more light on that.

We would need to develop a single standard and a limited number of battery sizes for this to ever be feasible. Go look at how many different starter batteries your typical auto parts store has to stock. Now imagine doing that with batteries that are much larger and much riskier if they are stored/handled improperly.

I can't imagine it, which is why I asked. You certainly seem skeptical. Your arguments aren't very convincing though.

>> Too many different start batteries

Okay... that's because there's no standard. But isn't that why standards are developed? Could you explain why developing a standard and a limited number of battery sizes is not feasible?

>> Risk of storing and handling them improperly

Could you explain why batteries are riskier than petrol?

And while we're discussing this China's decided to try it out [0].

[0] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside...

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#103

Post by xboxnolifes »

b112 wrote: post #47
giantg2 wrote: post #12

This seems misguided to me. One of the biggest benefits to an EV is not having to go to a gas station. Most people can charge at home for their typical needs. Next, it makes sense to put then at a person's work, then at stores or public parking. And of course there needs to be charging infrastructure on highway gas stations and/or rest stops. Making all gas stations, especially urban ones, pay a fine for not having c…

This seems misguided to me. It costs the city nothing, and is a revenue stream from those which don't comply. Win #1. It allows tourists, travellers a place to charge, which they know is maintained, and works, and is enroute to somewhere. There is no downside here, for the city.

> There is no downside here, for the city.

There are no immediate downsides. I'm not going to pretend to predict the future in it's entirety, but requiring any business to maintain any sort of additional infrastructure seems like it will lead to additional costs. I'm not saying that as a reason to avoid ever doing it, but let's not pretend it doesn't have consequences. This either means more expensive gas station visits (for at least some people), or it means fewer gas stations exists due to being priced out from the additional costs. Now, how those changes affect the local economy at large is anyone's guess.

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#104

Post by chx »

jbay808 wrote: post #28
giantg2 wrote: post #12

This seems misguided to me. One of the biggest benefits to an EV is not having to go to a gas station. Most people can charge at home for their typical needs. Next, it makes sense to put then at a person's work, then at stores or public parking. And of course there needs to be charging infrastructure on highway gas stations and/or rest stops. Making all gas stations, especially urban ones, pay a fine for not having c…

> Most people can charge at home for their typical needs A lot of people in Vancouver can't! For example they may live in an apartment building whose strata council refuses to install chargers in the garage, or they may live in somebody's basement suite and not have access to a garage at all. (I'd rather charge my car at a cafe, though.)

As a former strata treasurer: believe me, we wanted to. We had the votes, city had a nice incentive. But our building -- and indeed most high rises in the West End built '59-'73 -- simply didn't have enough wattage and when we asked BC Hydro for more the answer was an absolutely staggering amount of money since you needed to dig up the street and the house property to get the cables in. (And be God merciful on you if there are trees to mess with because the city won't be -- it is probably easier to get a license to kill than getting a permit to replace trees in the West End.) And it's the same amount of digging for 50A or 500A so it only makes sense to ask for as much as you can and BC Hydro has little left until the new substation comes online and now it seems that won't be before 2029.

Times like these, you need to consider if you had a spare 50A (we didn't) would you spend that on another drier or an EV charger?

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#105

Post by ryanbrunner »

giantg2 wrote: post #86
ryanbrunner wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you own something, there's no guarantee that you have your own private parking space to install EV chargers. Where I live (an old, very dense downtown), some houses don't have a driveway, and most can only accommodate a single car. Street parking is very common for residents. On top of that, apartments aren't guaranteed to have EV chargers installed.

What if they changed to law to allow residents that install charging infrastructure to have some preference/reservation of the spot they they improved in front of their residence? Perhaps these needs additional tech. Something like a cable run from the house to the parking spot, enclosed under a grate that can be unlocked by the resident, as well as a lockout switch inside the house. Of course it could be better for…

Yeah, certainly there could be more creative solutions here. Running power out to the street is a challenging and big job (particularly when there's sidewalks and other city property involved), but I definitely agree that gas stations aren't the most ideal solution, just that "put a charger in your driveway" isn't a universal home run of a solution.

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#106

Post by [deleted] »

giantg2 wrote: post #89
bastawhiz wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why doesn't the city install gas pumps along the streets as well? Parking meters are not comparable infrastructure. They often run on a small solar cell with almost no maintenance burden. Charging stations require a substantive amount of power and regular maintenance. Installing street chargers essentially requires entirely net new infrastructure.

"Why doesn't the city install gas pumps along the streets as well?" Because the process for pumping gas is fundamentally different from charging. If filling up a gas tank took hours, then you likely would see this sort of infrastructure. Also, it doesn't need to be the city directly. They can contract this to a private provider.

[deleted]

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#107

Post by chipsa »

giantg2 wrote: post #93
chipsa wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don’t need a supply upgrade, because they can shift most of the charging to night time, and the majority of people don’t use as much power at night as during the day. Unless they have a very small service. But most people have it sized to support a stove, electric dryer and A/C, if they got service relatively recently. And most electric companies will do the service upgrade for cheap if necessary, because…

If we are talking about a SFH charging one car at a time (or slow charging 2), sure. My comment was more focused on the gas stations, apartments, condos, etc that others have brought up.

Yeah, apartments and condos are probably going to need supply upgrades... but the normal use case for charging IME is: park, and plug in overnight. With sufficiently smart EVSEs, you should be able to limit the charge rate to not have to worry about exceeding your electrical service, even with 2 cars.

Most gas stations shouldn't have car chargers, because even with fast chargers, who really wants to be spending 30-60 minutes at one? Fast chargers should be at restaurants and other places people will naturally want to be for a bit of time. Only gas stations that should have chargers are really things like truck stops, where they already have some amenities.

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#108

Post by chipsa »

apike wrote: post #33
foobarian wrote: post #7

Given it's Vancouver couldn't they crank up the property taxes instead? Might relieve some of the real estate pressure coming from second-home owners as well - win-win!

Vancouver could certainly increase property taxes across the board – a very divisive issue with strong support in some corners and vociferous opposition in others – but the city doesn't have the authority to adjust property taxes in special cases, for example for properties that don't provide EV charging. That would require a legal change by the province.

Could they just generally increase taxes across the board, and give out cash to properties that provide EV charging (not as a rebate, but other incentive)?

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#109

Post by mabbo »

Zachsa999 wrote: post #92
mabbo wrote: post #16

This kind of makes sense to me. Gas stations are already setup as places where cars are coming and going frequently. As cars move from gas to electric, the use of these places transitions smoothly. It's a pigouvian tax: tax the things we want less of; in this case gas stations without chargers. I always kind of like those. Could work.

No, we want wider adoption of electric vehicles. Don't lose sight of the goal

Did you misread the title? This would encourage more chargers, which helps EV drivers.

Re: Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging

#110

Post by frumper »

b112 wrote: post #95
s0rce wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the perpetually broken air compressors in California.

Weird. Spend winters California , and one year I had a slow leak in my tire. I could fill it every 4 days and be fine, so I did just that. I found one broken air compressor hose, which I mentioned to the station owner. He ordered a replacement immediately. Our of maybe 50 uses, while travelling all over California, staying in a dozen different places, it seems to me that your reports are inaccurate. (I prefer to fix…

Twenty years ago I remember it being a constant issue in central California. Gas stations would have air compressors that had the hose ends cut off and stolen. I haven't had in issue in quite a while though.
Post reply on HN