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Podman Desktop Companion GUI – Parity on All Major Operating Systems

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Re: Podman Desktop Companion GUI – Parity on All Major Operating Systems

#101

Post by flatiron »

jossclimb wrote: post #100
flatiron wrote: post #99

I’m in charge of my teams dockerfile which literally runs all our crap locally for our developers. I was too lazy to care so just put in our O&M budget docker desktop (our dumb IT doesn’t let us run Linux. Half WSL. Half macOS (bleh)). Now I’m wondering if it’s worth the effort to switch. But it’s also hard to say we run podman on the desktop but docker in prod. Anyone run podman on gcp? Is that a thing?

> Anyone run podman on gcp? Is that a thing? Ton's of people do, it's the default container CLI for OpenShift.

Thanks. Good to know. Put that in my back pocket. Next year when they want some O@M cuts with a fat capital budget to do it I’ll scope a switch!

Re: Podman Desktop Companion GUI – Parity on All Major Operating Systems

#102

Post by lmeyerov »

girvo wrote: post #74
lmeyerov wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the comparison to os x docker, the biggest slowdown for os x docker is the file system mapping. It basically breaks any reasonable performance chart: look up posts getting into alternatives like mutagen. The slowdown makes using an IO-heavy dev flow like live editing via `npm run watch` relatively unusable: 30X+ slowdowns are normal. There might be high CPU overheads too (I recall we had to tweak seccomp), but wh…

Oh right yeah — to be honest because I was so used to file system mapping being so slow (and even on my W10 box it’s not perfect for deep file system trees like node_modules), I stopped using it. VSCodes “Create Remote Dev Container from Repository” functionality has made it even easier. My dev containers have no overlap with the host filesystem so macOS and Windows are equally performant for my use cases :)

Yes, wsl2 afaict works like that and a bit improved. Instead of dual booting or a restricted dev env, I click my Linux terminal icon and jump into a full & fast Ubuntu, including UIs when helpful. Sharing with Windows is possible through a shared mount of C:, but I rarely encounter it, basically only for a web downloads folder or working around certs. Same thing for VS Code, have a Windows mode and a wsl2 mode, and it opens the right one for you.

Almost all our dev is generic, so that means Windows for Office/web/... and full Linux for dev (except no real OpenCL).

Re: Podman Desktop Companion GUI – Parity on All Major Operating Systems

#103

Post by lmeyerov »

politelemon wrote: post #72
lmeyerov wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the comparison to os x docker, the biggest slowdown for os x docker is the file system mapping. It basically breaks any reasonable performance chart: look up posts getting into alternatives like mutagen. The slowdown makes using an IO-heavy dev flow like live editing via `npm run watch` relatively unusable: 30X+ slowdowns are normal. There might be high CPU overheads too (I recall we had to tweak seccomp), but wh…

Just curiosity, what are you using the GPUs for?

interactive graph ai + graph viz, such as for understanding it/sec/fraud/customer log activity

Re: Podman Desktop Companion GUI – Parity on All Major Operating Systems

#105

Post by lmeyerov »

shaklee3 wrote: post #89
lmeyerov wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, docker in wsl2 is great, including GPU support wsl2 mode is super impressive -- none of the overhead of docker on os x

any idea if podman will support GPU? I couldn't get it to work.

In theory yes, and we got tiny programs running this way, but could not afford to keep subsidizing megacorp politics.

Nvidia punts to IBM RHEL8 docs for GPU podman, which is unusual and risky to see. We officially recommend against it for HA environments due to this kind of lack and overall low relative confidence. I think k8s envs may be moving to something here, so maybe in a year or two? I'd be curious of folks doing stock rhel8 podman with tensorflow/torch on nvidia, which should be as vanilla as you can get for enterprise ai. We generally see more interesting GPU envs here (ex: DGX with advanced networking hw/sw), but we don't have confidence for the simple case, which is the starting point..

Re: Podman Desktop Companion GUI – Parity on All Major Operating Systems

#106

Post by emptysongglass »

lmeyerov wrote: post #94
emptysongglass wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't sound like an ethics issue unless you have other issues with Red Hat's behavior.

Strong disagree. See above. IBM/RHEL seem to be the effective the stewards of Podman, and are using their monopoly-like position in enterprise OS segments to take control of the virtualization layer through it. This is similar but worse to old MS/Windows doing tricks for IE vs others. Supporting Podman is supporting explicitly anti-competitive IBM/RHEL OSS behavior for enterprise, utility, & gov environments.

This doesn't make any sense to me. How is stewardship over a method of running and managing containers that was originally born out of another project not collaborating with the commons (docker engine) enforcing a monopoly position?

Everything Red Hat produces is open source (except the branded offerings, which are derived from the OSS upstreams). They charge for support. If you don't want support, use the OSS upstreams. What lock-in are you explicitly pointing to? Because I have no idea what you mean by taking "control of the virtualization layer".

Also, I should note that Nutanix and VMWare are a thing but again I am unclear at what unethical behavior you are actually pointing to at Red Hat. I am only responding to a shaky interpretation of what I think you are pointing to.

Re: Podman Desktop Companion GUI – Parity on All Major Operating Systems

#107

Post by lmeyerov »

emptysongglass wrote: post #106
lmeyerov wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong disagree. See above. IBM/RHEL seem to be the effective the stewards of Podman, and are using their monopoly-like position in enterprise OS segments to take control of the virtualization layer through it. This is similar but worse to old MS/Windows doing tricks for IE vs others. Supporting Podman is supporting explicitly anti-competitive IBM/RHEL OSS behavior for enterprise, utility, & gov environments.

This doesn't make any sense to me. How is stewardship over a method of running and managing containers that was originally born out of another project not collaborating with the commons (docker engine) enforcing a monopoly position? Everything Red Hat produces is open source (except the branded offerings, which are derived from the OSS upstreams). They charge for support. If you don't want support, use the OSS upstre…

Maybe you are not familiar with how enterprise , and especially utility and gov systems work? It is often hard to not use RHEL due to compliance policies. IBMers deciding to swap in their race horse -- and simultaneously hobbling the current one -- is effectively making the decision for the US Gov for the next 2 years.

Yeah sure OSS in theory and IBM is a free entity. But for the same freedom, I am free to call from for divesting from any use of IBM/RHEL products and consultants in enterprise and gov contracts as no longer a trusted and ethical partner due to their anti-competitive self-dealing at the clear expense of the community & customer. RHEL lost neutrality & HA credibility as an infra layer and IBM as a partner through this. Nothing personal, just business and trying to protect our users, same as the RHEL org's actions helping themselves.

Re: Podman Desktop Companion GUI – Parity on All Major Operating Systems

#108

Post by emptysongglass »

lmeyerov wrote: post #107
emptysongglass wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't make any sense to me. How is stewardship over a method of running and managing containers that was originally born out of another project not collaborating with the commons (docker engine) enforcing a monopoly position? Everything Red Hat produces is open source (except the branded offerings, which are derived from the OSS upstreams). They charge for support. If you don't want support, use the OSS upstre…

Maybe you are not familiar with how enterprise , and especially utility and gov systems work? It is often hard to not use RHEL due to compliance policies. IBMers deciding to swap in their race horse -- and simultaneously hobbling the current one -- is effectively making the decision for the US Gov for the next 2 years. Yeah sure OSS in theory and IBM is a free entity. But for the same freedom, I am free to call from…

Well I am deeply familiar with how enterprise gov systems work in Denmark but no I am not familiar with the US side.

Can you clarify what you mean by swapping their race horse? What is the horse being swapped?

Re: Podman Desktop Companion GUI – Parity on All Major Operating Systems

#109

Post by dicknuckle »

girvo wrote: post #55
qbasic_forever wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but there's no release of docker daemon for mac or windows. You have to run a linux VM and install and use it there. Docker desktop basically wraps that VM process up into a little gui app. If you're willing to do it yourself then yeah a simple virtualbox VM can run docker without issues or license fees.

I guess it’s time to go back to the old boot2docker xhyve setup I used to have!

or just use Podman.

Re: Podman Desktop Companion GUI – Parity on All Major Operating Systems

#110

Post by lmeyerov »

emptysongglass wrote: post #108
lmeyerov wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you are not familiar with how enterprise , and especially utility and gov systems work? It is often hard to not use RHEL due to compliance policies. IBMers deciding to swap in their race horse -- and simultaneously hobbling the current one -- is effectively making the decision for the US Gov for the next 2 years. Yeah sure OSS in theory and IBM is a free entity. But for the same freedom, I am free to call from…

Well I am deeply familiar with how enterprise gov systems work in Denmark but no I am not familiar with the US side. Can you clarify what you mean by swapping their race horse? What is the horse being swapped?

Docker largely entered Enterprise (regulated & security conscious markets) like utilities, us gov, banks, etc. via rhel 7 / centos 7 . A lot of people doing a lot of compliance work everywhere, from approvals to infra to audits, invested serious time, $, and social capital to make that happen. With RHEL 8, IBM / RHEL bet on podman (or, "not docker"), all the way from marketing to M&A to repositories to where developer hours go. On its own, I think that's great: tech should keep pushing, and good pressure on docker for things like rootless. But, that's not the issue here.

Where this gets problematic for a commonly "single-sourced" infrastructure technology in regulated envs is IBM/RHEL also prevented docker from making it into the RHEL 8 repos. Podman was obviously technically deficient as a critical infra replacement due to immaturity like many unimplemented compatibility APIs, yet it was marketed as compatible and instead of offering both until the community could prove it out etc, RHEL8 didn't include docker. NBD for people doing redhat at home or whatever easy environments, but if you're doing something like bringing AI to important societal problems at big world-reaching orgs, having to go outside the main repos can be a major drain on time, staff, budget, and even an existential risk. This is the kind of BigCo malfeasance we're supposed to be moving away from by promoting Linux, OSS, and containers.

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