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Is there any future for the GTK-based Desktop Environments?

ludditus.com

101–110 of 142 posts

Re: Is there any future for the GTK-based Desktop Environments?

#101
post #6
post #2

So much fighting over how best to draw the UI that will launch various instances of the Chrome engine. Want to know why everything is written in Electron or as a web app? Because literally every desktop platform over the last decade has decided to play design and engineering games instead of just make a really solid stable base to write apps on top of.

I don't think that's really the reason for Electron's popularity. While GTK and Qt are cross-platform, my (limited, to be fair) experience with building for multiple platforms was that it was a huge pain in the ass, and Windows and macOS platform integration often felt clunky and out of place. The big draw for Electron is that we have way way way more web developers out there these days than native-code desktop UI de…

TCL/TK is still both easier than electron and will produce nicer apps. I think the Electron thing is the result of the popularity of web development more than native API failures (other than mobile development being an incredible pain in the ass.)

Re: Is there any future for the GTK-based Desktop Environments?

#102

Yes. GNOME is better than ever, GTK4+Libadwaita is simply doing one: Looking perfect. The HIG are excellent, without GNOME I would be maybe 40% as productive as with it.

Did they quit drawing the massive client side decorations and go back to a file/edit menu with GTK4+Libadwaita? That was a massive regression.

Re: Is there any future for the GTK-based Desktop Environments?

#103
post #58
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not last even two paragraphs: I clicked through on "Ubuntu MATE cannot be trusted" and found something better summarised as "I tried getting away with calling people idiots on Ubuntu MATE forums in a bizarre social experiment and cannot deal with them not putting up with that."

Same, it's disturbing: * OP: "If a distro with 60k packages cannot accommodate one or three extra packages for an official flavor, then someone is an idiot, and that idiot is not me." * Moderator came and ask to not talk like this. * OP: "Censorship, simply because I used the word “idiot” without naming anyone in particular!", and OP continue. * Moderator close the tread. * OP: "Then the little Stalin closed my threa…

I'm anti censorship and post ideas controversial enough to get banned from here pretty often but personal attacks are just stupid. There's no reason for that.

Re: Is there any future for the GTK-based Desktop Environments?

#104
post #3

I agree with some of this, though it is perhaps a bit overly harsh at times. Frankly, I’m not terribly impressed by the direction that Qt has taken either, though. This puts the open source desktop in a pretty unfortunate place…

I'm not that enthused about where Qt is heading but it's arguably in better hands than GTK+, that's for sure. First, Qt isn't strictly tied with KDE - it has its own life by itself, without KDE libraries at all, and a vibrant ecosystem that uses it for automotive and cross-platform desktop apps. Second, while the Qt Company has decided to stop releasing LTS releases as open source, KDE has a binding agreement that allows KDE to release Qt on a BSD license, were the Qt company intentioned to close it down(https://kde.org/community/whatiskde/kdefreeqtfoundation/). Since the whole LTS shenanigan happened, KDE has shown to be quite competent at maintaining its own set of patches for Qt5, which most distributions nowadays have adopted.

If Qt were ever to become closed source again, it would probably face a very strong competitor in a BSD or Apache-licensed fork from KDE. The Qt Company sells its licenses mostly to people that want to use GPL-covered Qt modules in closed source apps, so they really cannot let that to happen.

Re: Is there any future for the GTK-based Desktop Environments?

#105

A preface: I use GNOME and KDE on separate devices. I have tried i3 and intend to return to it when graced with more time to customise it. Importantly, I used GNOME before GTK3 happened. I mention the above as preface because I see these kinds of posts on this website a lot and they are very misleading, and I believe I have the credentials to explain why. If you skim the original article you could be forgiven for thi…

> If that bothers you, it is far more productive to actually contribute your time to fixing the issue than simply describing it while waxing lyrical about how all these modern devs have simply 'lost the way'. I agree with that sentiment in principle. In fact, I advocate the same myself. However, playing the devils advocate, all an individual non-core developer can do is try to smooth out the rough edges. If the compl…

Thanks for responding. I can see your angle but I don't think I agree. I'll try to respond in good faith but let me know if I've made a misapprehension.

In regards to the topic of user base alienation: I do think it is an important metric to keep track of, but whether it should be prioritised is contextual. In the case of GNOME, they have frequently made a point that accessibility is a large focus for them. Accessibility is not the same as making their core user base familiar with their software.

Said another way, I believe that making an argument that even with their limited resources, GNOME are not sufficiently servicing their users is ignoring the purpose they wish to serve. Their goal is not to minimise change - that is more in line with xfce, i3, or even DWM.

In contrast, I believe attending to existing users is important for KDE, because their core goals are centred on choice. Therefore, it would be antithetical to their goals to restrict choice.

To summarise my angle, alienation is sometimes important, but not here. It would be more expected if GNOME were better staffed (and so extended scope and service guarantees), which brings me to my next point.

You made an interesting point about how a cranky individual that lamented the loss of a feature would not be able to 'change' the upstream attitude. This is true, but it slightly misses what I am trying to say. I am not advocating for the submission of singular patches in response to singular grievances.

Instead, what I am suggesting is that people who are interested in the survival of projects become involved with the long-term (or even just the mid term) running of the project.

This will not only give them greater influence in how the software is written, it will also mean that, as I alluded to before, scope and service can expand.

Being involved with a project also means you will become better informed on how the code base operates. With that knowledge, you could more easily maintain a fork of the project that supports your chosen feature.

Is that a lot of work? Yes - which returns to my original point. Regular contribution is a huge difference that unhappy people should earnestly consider. It may require contributors to go along with decisions they don't like, but with time comes practice, then experience, then trust, then influence.

Or, in a sentence: you can improve these projects in the way you see fit if you take the steps required.

Re: Is there any future for the GTK-based Desktop Environments?

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the opposite camp. I recall great monolithic software for media production from the 90's and think our modern web-centric view is "dumbed-down". There's a time and place for minimalism, but the term "power user" also has a meaning: your accumulated user-base that didn't leave. Windows post-Vista has forced me and countless others into never bothering again. The fact of a 90's MCSE certification means nothing w…

I'm so harsh with Windows 95 here because back then I found out about other desktops (e.g. on Unix) that had better UI. Several workspaces, ability to drag windows not only by grabbing the title bar, clicking the scroll bar to the scroll place you need (instead of having to drag it all the way there), launching programs by other means than a non ending hierarchy of menus. Not to mention that anything not Windows was…

The discussion is about UI here, so the fact that Windows 95/98 was built on shaky foundations is besides the point.

Other GUI systems may have had this or that feature over Windows 95/98, but none matched its cleanness, consistency, discoverability, functionality, and overall usability.

> TLDR: Windows 95/98 wasn't the pinncacle of UI even when it came out, so it definitely isn't today.

I'd argue that it was, and that it still is near, if not the pinnacle today.

Re: Is there any future for the GTK-based Desktop Environments?

#107
As a consumer of desktop environments (and not a GUI application developer) I think that GTK based desktop environments are in the best place they have ever been and Linux as a DE for 'normal' people is a reasonable option in a way it never has been in the past.

Gnome on Fedora is a solid experience. It works well out of the box, it's performant, intuitive, well designed and good looking. I'm sure it rubs some developers the wrong way (there are always some) but based on my (small sample size) observation of people using it, it seems to be intuitive. It's not just Gnome - Wayland is part of the picture because it makes things like multi-monitor more reliable too. We're past the performance issues that the current version of Gnome had to start with, and Wayland is continually having the issues eliminated (once the last few screen sharing ones are dealt with there won't be loads to complain about).

Re: Is there any future for the GTK-based Desktop Environments?

#108
post #3

I agree with some of this, though it is perhaps a bit overly harsh at times. Frankly, I’m not terribly impressed by the direction that Qt has taken either, though. This puts the open source desktop in a pretty unfortunate place…

I'm not that enthused about where Qt is heading but it's arguably in better hands than GTK+, that's for sure. First, Qt isn't strictly tied with KDE - it has its own life by itself, without KDE libraries at all, and a vibrant ecosystem that uses it for automotive and cross-platform desktop apps. Second, while the Qt Company has decided to stop releasing LTS releases as open source, KDE has a binding agreement that al…

Yeah, the KDE Free Qt arrangement is pretty unique and makes it significantly less likely that there will be a rapid dropoff in Qt open source. This became important because the modern Qt company is awful.

That said, I still think the direction of Qt has kind of sucked. QtWidgets is mostly stagnating, and Qt Quick is not really appealing to me…

Re: Is there any future for the GTK-based Desktop Environments?

#109
"Is the Linux desktop heading south?"

There is a whole world out there. I use fvwm as a "desktop environment" with MC as file manager. I also find the idea of "desktop environment" a bit old. Even on windows 10 every programm behaves differently. Even MS is not able to have a unique look and feel in its own programms.

Re: Is there any future for the GTK-based Desktop Environments?

#110

Yes. GNOME is better than ever, GTK4+Libadwaita is simply doing one: Looking perfect. The HIG are excellent, without GNOME I would be maybe 40% as productive as with it.

It may look good --- beauty is in the eye of the beholder --- but it's ergonomics are bad. All those hamburger menus, all those disabled configuration parameters, the non-modular architecture, the poor state and quality of Gnome Shell extensions. I really try to like the modern Gnome, but they make it very hard. If your goal is not staring at some graphic design, but having tools that help and do not stand in the way, then Gnome feels just wrong. The primary reason why I still try to work with it, is its integration into system services.
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