Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator • Hacker News Board

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#101

Post by dgellow » Wed, Apr 06, 2022, 3:28 PM UTC

L_226 wrote: post #70

dgellow wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or a UG for €1 - but then I can't add other shareholders until I pay an additional €25k to convert it to a GmbH. Could you elaborate on this, or point to a source? The way I understand the mini-GmbH model (UG) there is no limitations regarding shareholders versus a standard GmbH. Not saying you’re wrong, I’m by far not an expert but I looked into creating a Unternehmergesellschaft ~1 year ago and don’t remember rea…

> The way I understand the mini-GmbH model (UG) there is no limitations regarding shareholders versus a standard GmbH. This is correct, however from my understanding this is only at time of incorporation. If I was to incorporate and then get a term sheet from an investor, I would struggle to then make them a legal shareholder in my UG. Perhaps I am also misunderstanding, re-reading [0] you could be correct. I did rea…

Have you tried contacting a “Handelskammer”? I had quite good experiences in the past with hk24.de for example, even asking questions in English.

Edit: I feel it’s always so complicated to understand the German system for anything related to company administrative stuff :p

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#102

Post by alexdoesstuff » Wed, Apr 06, 2022, 4:04 PM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #98

L_226 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I was expecting to have a German subsidiary eventually. Also considering Netherlands

Netherlands is good as it’s not too expensive (we dropped the 9k ltd thing you also have for gbmh quite a while ago) but the rules and taxes and lack of investors is quite hard; similar things to Germany. You would be bound to those anyway though if your employees are not freelancers and are in those countries…

I am actually not sure if the investor assessment still stands after Covid forced just about any startup to be remote-work-heavy. I don't think most investors care anymore where companies are based or incorporated as long as it is within reason (don't incorporate in Australia unless you are an Australian company) and has a solid and well supported legal system.

The issue in Europe from an investor perspective is that scaling is tougher than in the US. You have to most likely make changes to your product to cover a sufficient number of European countries due to a combination language, currency, regulation, customs, etc.. Your sales and marketing materials needs to at least be in different languages. Your German sales rep needs to speak German and most likely be German, your French sales rep needs to speak French and be French, etc. Add to that the fact that in B2B European companies tend to be less open to innovation. Also, you may encounter workers-councils at your potential clients discouraging changes to processes, etc.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#103

Post by ed_balls » Wed, Apr 06, 2022, 5:21 PM UTC

L_226 wrote: post #16

0xfaded wrote: post #3

If I did another startup in Europe, I would incorporate in Delaware and raise US money from the get go. It's cool to see the YC terms borrowed directly, and hopefully that would be a shot across the bows of European investors. But to really give European founders leverage they need access to US valuations and terms. I think semi-philanthropic incubators like these could really help by guiding founders to form US enti…

I am doing this right now, Stripe Atlas Delaware C-corp but operating in Germany. I could have incorporated a GmbH for €25,000 (goes into an account to act as collateral against future liability) - which uses all my savings basically, or a UG for €1 - but then I can't add other shareholders until I pay an additional €25k to convert it to a GmbH. For my startup, which is capital intensive, I have no choice but to use…

Can you not say that "this macbook and that car are company's property" and fulfil the capital requirement? the minimal capital in Poland is 5000PLN(1100EUR) and you just buy a laptop.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#104

Post by sethhochberg » Wed, Apr 06, 2022, 5:26 PM UTC

kungito wrote: post #84

mattrighetti wrote: post #32

> The exodus of tech talent and lack of startup creation in Italy has worried investors From my experience I can tell that most people here don't want to waste time in a startup with its high risk factor, and it's even more worrying if you come from a college environment where you expect that _Let's do this, I don't care_ kind of attitude. The majority of new grads prefer a secure (and most of the time underpaid) pos…

My impression was that in the US you get compensated pretty nicely while in a startup. The whole idea is to get funded so that you can attract talent with crazy salaries. Or did I get something wrong?

It varies a lot based on the stage of company you are joining. Very small startups often pay relatively little in cash and rely on equity to attract talent, because the early stage hires are at least theoretically interested in the vision and potential upside of the business growing, and cashflow is tight at early stage companies.

Larger, later stage startups tend to rely less on equity and more on cash because the equity gets pretty diluted pretty quickly - there’s an awkward middle ground where there may still be plenty of uncertainty about whether the business will survive to an exit/IPO/etc despite some success, but where any shares you got aren’t necessarily enough to make up for low salary if one of those things happens. That middle ground is where large cash comp makes the most sense.

But broadly speaking, yes, tech startup salaries in the US trend high.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#105

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 06, 2022, 5:28 PM UTC

samatman wrote: post #90

epolanski wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You kind of missed some of my crucial points: starting a business on low budget in Italy is possible. People with the right ideas and knowledge can start ventures easier than they would elsewhere in the world, especially silicon valley where you're much more dependent on (important) private capital. In Italy, that's not really the case, between lower salaries, no interest loans and government funding we have had many…

> People with the right ideas and knowledge can start ventures easier [in Italy than Silicon Valley] Would you be so kind as to provide a metric, so I can demonstrate conclusively that this isn't true? I'm basing this on intuition, which is in turn based on numerous Italian software developers I've met in California. Do they have the wrong ideas and knowledge? Of course not, they went where they could run a business…

[deleted]

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#106

Post by bonzini » Wed, Apr 06, 2022, 5:49 PM UTC

darkwater wrote: post #24

bonzini wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> still not every salaried person can have a default pre-compiled tax draft that they can just sign on the Internet and get approved. You have to go and compile it one from scratch This has changed several years ago. > you had to pay an annual tax to validate your passport Keyword being had . It's gone for like 10 years.

> This has changed several years ago. AFAIK not yet for everybody > Keyword being had. It's gone for like 10 years. I think it's less, but in my last renewal in 2017 I had to pay over 100€ all at once which is ridiculous (but at least less ridiculous than having to put a 10€ physical "marca da bollo" each and every year).

> AFAIK not yet for everybody

For all employees (lavoratori dipendenti) and retired people.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#107

Post by gumby » Wed, Apr 06, 2022, 6:14 PM UTC

wlecometo wrote: post #23

Well the main issue in italy is not lack of funding or lack of talent but rather the amount of taxation companies had to go through and the uncertainty behind a big and complex legal system which makes an average of 8 years for civil processing . these two things alone and the fact there are better places in europe to make a startup (hint: netherlands, germany, france, czech republic, romania, poland) makes me wonder…

> the amount of taxation companies had to go through and the uncertainty behind a big and complex legal system which makes an average of 8 years for civil processing .

It's the big, complex legal system that gets me, and the mentality that keeps it in place. There's some sort of minimum required level (countries with too little don't thrive either) but when I think of Italy or India I think the complexity of simply getting anything done is discouraging.

OTOH I don't really care much about taxes and never have. Most of them are on profits, and if you're making profit, great! There are of course a plethora of bullshit excise taxes like business licenses, but in the main they have never added up to a lot in any business I've run. And of course I depend on things like fire brigade, a legal system (not that I've needed to sue anyone or be sued), clean air, roads, etc etc so paying taxes doesn't seem that bad in principle. Those things need to be paid anyway, and sometimes leaving them out of taxes is far worse (consider America's ridiculous health system)

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#108

Post by bloodyplonker22 » Wed, Apr 06, 2022, 6:16 PM UTC

epolanski wrote: post #54

wlecometo wrote: post #23

Well the main issue in italy is not lack of funding or lack of talent but rather the amount of taxation companies had to go through and the uncertainty behind a big and complex legal system which makes an average of 8 years for civil processing . these two things alone and the fact there are better places in europe to make a startup (hint: netherlands, germany, france, czech republic, romania, poland) makes me wonder…

Yes, doing business in Italy is hard, but when your company is doing poorly financially or is having issues it's the government that is going to pay your worker's salaries. Do places with low taxes have this? And the education of your worker's is paid by the government, so you don't get employees that are desperate to pay their student loans. And so is healthcare, so you don't have to pay no insurance (you may, but y…

Wow, what a ridiculous comment. What you are mention is only a good environment for lifestyle businesses, not startups and growth companies who are usually more innovative and have the possibility to create massive net positives in a country's economy.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#109

Post by rosndo » Wed, Apr 06, 2022, 6:28 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #107

wlecometo wrote: post #23

Well the main issue in italy is not lack of funding or lack of talent but rather the amount of taxation companies had to go through and the uncertainty behind a big and complex legal system which makes an average of 8 years for civil processing . these two things alone and the fact there are better places in europe to make a startup (hint: netherlands, germany, france, czech republic, romania, poland) makes me wonder…

> the amount of taxation companies had to go through and the uncertainty behind a big and complex legal system which makes an average of 8 years for civil processing . It's the big, complex legal system that gets me, and the mentality that keeps it in place. There's some sort of minimum required level (countries with too little don't thrive either) but when I think of Italy or India I think the complexity of simply g…

The problem is that some countries offer vastly better ROI on taxes than others.

Taxes aren’t a problem, shit ROI on taxes is.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#110

Post by lnxg33k1 » Wed, Apr 06, 2022, 6:46 PM UTC

emme wrote: post #82

lnxg33k1 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried Aruba? I have done remotely up to the level 2 with them, and the verification compared to the one from Poste is just via webcam, you just hop on a chat with them, move your head left and right, make a jump, a turn, hold your ID close to your face and the guy just approves the identity, try if you haven't thought of them yet

And you can use it with a standard OTP generator: https://github.com/andry08/ArubaOTP-seed-extractor

Omg this is awesome, thank you