The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk • Hacker News Board

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#101

Post by glenstein » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:00 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #69

yike321123 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it. I guess to say it more plainly it's what you see the rock or rap genres of today as. While very few people "innovate" just like the music industry the writing industry is a monopoly full of those whose only interest is in revenue generation and shiny lights rather…

> "the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it" Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. Now it's just a trope. So I disagree with what some are saying that cyberpunk is currently us…

>Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore.

I have to express a hard disagree here. I think the message can be made at higher or lower resolutions, in vague or deep ways, and can comment not just on broad vague themes but in deep ways about specific mechanisms.

The merit and pertinence of the message as radical criticism is going to have everything to do with ground level execution of details, depth of world building, clarity of vision, etc., which will turn out different depending on any particular media.

I do think it's fair to say that most things downwind from Neuromancer can be fairly assessed as tropey, but I think that's a sturgeon's law thing rather than something unique about the genre as distinct from other genres.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#102

Post by 01100011 » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:02 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #29

I was honestly underwhelmed by Neuromancer. Maybe because so many people raved about it or that I read it many years after it was written. I honestly don't know. It was... OK. But amazing? I don't see it. I love science fiction. One thing you have to realize about science ficiton is that it is a product of the time it was written. It may share many of the aesthetics, themes, philosophies and politics of that time. Li…

Context is important.

I've heard young people argue that the Beatles weren't all that great, and then go on to name modern artists who would have never existed without them.

I'm late Gen-X and my wife is late millennial. We watched Pulp Fiction together and she didn't get it. I realized then how much of it was groundbreaking because of the time of its release. Someone watching it now just won't be blown away like I was when I first saw it. I imagine if we went back and watched Blade Runner it would be another forgettable movie to her and not the groundbreaking masterpiece it was when I saw it for the first dozen times.

Reminds me of the Steely Dan song 'Hey Nineteen'...

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#103

Post by cubano » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:04 PM UTC

cstross wrote: post #12

karpierz wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The protagonist is so addicted to the Internet that he's willing to do literally anything to be able to use it again. If that's not a relatable motivation, I don't know what is.

The word "internet" doesn't appear in Neuromancer because in most respects it hadn't been invented yet. While DoD declared TCP/IP the future standard for military networking in 1982, IBM, DEC, and AT&T only adopted TCP/IP in 1984, a couple of months before Neuromancer went on sale. Gibson notoriously wrote it on a manual typewriter circa 1982-83. (It took a year from acceptance to put a novel manuscript into producti…

The Source? Compuserve? AOL?

Those three come quickly to mind that were certainly trying very hard to be the " publicly accessible global information network with visual representations of corporate presence" you are speaking of.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#104

Post by Jon_Lowtek » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:04 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #29

I was honestly underwhelmed by Neuromancer. Maybe because so many people raved about it or that I read it many years after it was written. I honestly don't know. It was... OK. But amazing? I don't see it. I love science fiction. One thing you have to realize about science ficiton is that it is a product of the time it was written. It may share many of the aesthetics, themes, philosophies and politics of that time. Li…

>> Cyberpunk as a genre stems from xenophobia, ultimately. There was a pervasive fear in the 1980s that the Japanese were "taking over".

I strongly disagree. The core elements are transhumanism, post-liberal capitalism, high tech and low lives with a lot of pulp and noir: sex, drugs and violence at the street level. There are no heroes, no epics, just deeply broken people getting into a mess of intrigues as everyone just tries to fill their own egoistic needs, deal with their personal demons, or gets dragged along a path of least resistance. Claiming this is fear of xenos taking over is to close ones eyes for the very problems of our culture in favor of blaming someone else. The dystopian future has been there all along, you are just to sheltered in your uptown community to know about the perils of addicts and the girls that grew up in the house of blue lights.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#105

Post by Apocryphon » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:05 PM UTC

Has anyone read his Bridge trilogy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_trilogy

> The trilogy derives its name from the San Francisco–Oakland Bay Bridge, which was abandoned in an earthquake and has become a massive shantytown and a site of improvised shelter.

Seems sadly two heartbeats into the future for today’s Bay Area

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#106

Post by pmoriarty » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:05 PM UTC

nathias wrote: post #93

Gibson's failiure was the failiure of punk in general, it was too cool and not edgy enough and was easily incorporated into mainstream.

Is that a failure or a success?

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#107

Post by criddell » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:05 PM UTC

ychompinator wrote: post #13

A great and terrible book, Gibson repeatedly throwing you in to mountains of not yet explained language and concepts before dragging you out of confusion a chapter later is frustrating and tiresome, however I could not help coming back for more. I regret nothing.

I have to read his books twice. The first time I just plow through, confused the entire time. The second pass is where I can enjoy it, but there are still a lot of times where I read a sentence and struggle with parsing it.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#108

Post by sneak » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:05 PM UTC

mmaunder wrote: post #68

I’m constantly amazed at how Metaverse aficionados quote Snow Crash and and other 1990s works as cornerstones of cyberspace, when Gibson invented the term and Neuromancer was written in 1984. Gibson is the original. The passage where Case connects to the matrix (also a Gibson term) again for the first time once his nervous system is repaired is heartbreakingly beautiful. I relate to it as a young phone phreak growing…

To be honest, the descriptions of the metaverse are the parts of Neuromancer that hold up least well. The dirtbags, crime, sex, and drugs are all still perfect, and I imagine will remain so.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#109

Post by jrochkind1 » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:06 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

Curious if someone can find a URL for Gibson saying such things.

I've never seen Gibson describing Neuromancer as a critique of Reagonomics or having any particular political agenda. Interested to see it if so! I don't think of Gibson having nearly as much "political" agenda or grounding as some other early "cyberpunk" writer's like Bruce Sterling or Rudy Rucker.

(I don't think Gibson himself referred to his work "cyberpunk" or "punk" originally)

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#110

Post by dempedempe » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:06 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

That's interesting. I guess the two are coming from very different places. Gibson comes from a place of rebellion. The current fascination with cyberpunk comes from a place of nostalgia.