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Don't write just in plain text (longevity vs. authenticity)

blog.miris.design

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Re: Don't write just in plain text (longevity vs. authenticity)

#101

Post by jjav »

paxys wrote: post #98
briandoll wrote: post #85

I assume this is a response to Derek Sivers post: Write Plain Text Files https://sive.rs/plaintext I've been using computers daily for about 35 years now and I have a _lot_ of plain text files that I regularly use -- notes, lists, outlines, quotes, links, etc. Does anyone who has been around a while, have a large multi-decade collection of texts that are _not_ plain text? What formats do you use? How do you maintain…

My MP3 collection has been going on for at least 25 years and still works perfectly. Same for HTML pages (I have entire websites backed up from the early 90s). I still have Wordstar and Word 1.0 files which I can open and edit. I can't think of too many pieces of software or data formats from the last 30-40 years which achieved some threshold of popularity but have no support today.

> My MP3 collection has been going on for at least 25 years and still works perfectly.

Mine as well (maybe not quite 25 but close). But music isn't written word, clearly it wouldn't be in an ASCII text file.

The key is universal, non-proprietary formats that are supported by thousands of open source applications. Those are the formats that will last a lifetime and beyond. So, plain text for the written word (HTML counts as plain text, you can read and write it in any plain text editor), JPG for pictures, MP3 for music.

For video there doesn't seem to be an answer that is fully satisfactory, that I feel confident I can still view in 50 years. So I mostly take photos, not much video, since I can't trust the longevity of video.

Re: Don't write just in plain text (longevity vs. authenticity)

#102

Post by chaxor »

I like the idea of making a binary file into a plaintext file - but you could store it as the ASCII characters "0000110100111011110001111100101..."

This would be great for many reasons. At the top of that list for example, is getting a lot more use out of those hard drives you paid for.

Re: Don't write just in plain text (longevity vs. authenticity)

#103

Post by briandoll »

paxys wrote: post #98
briandoll wrote: post #85

I assume this is a response to Derek Sivers post: Write Plain Text Files https://sive.rs/plaintext I've been using computers daily for about 35 years now and I have a _lot_ of plain text files that I regularly use -- notes, lists, outlines, quotes, links, etc. Does anyone who has been around a while, have a large multi-decade collection of texts that are _not_ plain text? What formats do you use? How do you maintain…

My MP3 collection has been going on for at least 25 years and still works perfectly. Same for HTML pages (I have entire websites backed up from the early 90s). I still have Wordstar and Word 1.0 files which I can open and edit. I can't think of too many pieces of software or data formats from the last 30-40 years which achieved some threshold of popularity but have no support today.

MP3 is a good one. Although I had to develop a lot of perl to manage the various incantations of ID3 tags, especially when VBR became popular. MP3 files may still play, but the full experience (properly attributed w/ band, album, song title, song number, album art, etc.) is likely less than perfect over time.

Do Wordstar files open in modern Word applications, even on iOS? That's part of the access aspect over the long term -- files that can be used, everyday, with your daily-driver tools with minimal special software needed.

Re: Don't write just in plain text (longevity vs. authenticity)

#104

Post by dade_ »

mxuribe wrote: post #38
dade_ wrote: post #17

MD for all things text and SVG journals for handwritten notes, diagrams, sketches, screenshots. Works great, but haven’t found a way to integrate them beyond using a common set of folders.

> ...SVG journals for handwritten... Would you kindly clarify this? Did you mean scan in handwritten material but save it in a scalable image format like SVG? I'm quite interested but maybe i'm not capturing what you mean here, because i have not had my breakfast. :-)

I use Write (iPad/Windows/Ubuntu/Android) to take handwritten notes and jot info. I first started using SVG on my Sony eReader, it used this vector format. http://www.styluslabs.com/

Re: Don't write just in plain text (longevity vs. authenticity)

#105

Post by gwern »

ggm wrote: post #4

he said.. in courier, monospaced paragraphs format, morally as close to "plaintext" as you can be with a couple of diagrams which could have been ASCII art...

And if the diagrams had been ASCII art diagrams (eg https://twitter.com/thorstenball/status/1498541884796542977 ), OP could fix the typo in the diagram with a keystroke.

Re: Don't write just in plain text (longevity vs. authenticity)

#106

Post by cupofpython »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #33
gilleain wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious : what is "meta-dynamic" information?

Good question. So as I see it: something that's about generative behaviours. For example: The rules that describe the dynamics of generative systems like Collatz (n%2==0 ? n' = n/2 : n'=3*n+1) there's specific integers that make it work while for a Lorenz attractor you'd have three floats that could take different initial values. That would be a conversation about "meta-dynamics". Or maybe, what changes are behind sy…

ngl I am also curious about meta-dynamic information and I do not think this response helped me understand the definition much.

Do you mean the rules for Collatz are the meta-dynamic information? because from the rules we can generate additional information dynamically?

Are you able to describe it a different, less mathematical, way maybe?

for example, can meta-dynamic information be observed by seeing the way someone jumps up and down?

Re: Don't write just in plain text (longevity vs. authenticity)

#107

Post by nicbou »

There doesn't need to be a compromise. You can have both if you keep your data in multiple formats. Storage is cheap and text files are small.

My timeline thing [0] keeps the original archives, stores the timeline entries in a database, and exports them hourly as JSON + files. If the code stops working or the database crashes, the files are still there. The automated backups are there too. No information is lost.

However, the richness is not lost in the process. This timeline has geolocation history, notebook scans and a bunch of other things that don't really translate to plain text.

The most important difference is that I can write to my timeline from my phone. Managing text files across devices is quite troublesome by comparison. If I want plain text out of it, I can write a new Destination that pipes entries to plain text files or to a fax machine.

[0] https://nicolasbouliane.com/projects/timeline

Re: Don't write just in plain text (longevity vs. authenticity)

#108

Post by nicbou »

II2II wrote: post #36
nonrandomstring wrote: post #20

This essay is actually deeper than its surface appearance, about text versus other formats. It's about semantics and richness of content, although I am not sure Miris fully grasps what s/he is wrestling with. The author invokes the concept of "authenticity", and that's where it gets interesting. I used to set my students a question about information content in a class on the philosophy of procedural representation. W…

Then there is the value of the written word. While the grainy video may reveal more than the high resolution photograph, the written word may reveal more than a grainy (or high resolution) video. A diary is much better at exposing motivations, emotions, the perceived relevance of events. A newspaper article can articulate the events of a day much better than a film that captures a fragment of time in the framed image…

I agree. My written travel journals are far more interesting than the pictures, because they show how I actually felt while I was there, with all the little stories that go with the trip.

Re: Don't write just in plain text (longevity vs. authenticity)

#109

Post by nicbou »

aasasd wrote: post #27
nonrandomstring wrote: post #20

This essay is actually deeper than its surface appearance, about text versus other formats. It's about semantics and richness of content, although I am not sure Miris fully grasps what s/he is wrestling with. The author invokes the concept of "authenticity", and that's where it gets interesting. I used to set my students a question about information content in a class on the philosophy of procedural representation. W…

> very high resolution photo of the aviation pioneer Amelia Earhart I thought photo quality was rather meh until the 50s or at least the 40s? Even with large films the results are often muddy in olden shots—while 70 mm movie film from the 60s will probably still be redigitized into super-duper-hd formats in the late 21st century (e.g. https://youtu.be/sCv-dIFGcd0 ).

Have a look at Ansel Adam's photography. The sharpness is outstanding.

Re: Don't write just in plain text (longevity vs. authenticity)

#110

Post by yumiris »

gwern wrote: post #105
ggm wrote: post #4

he said.. in courier, monospaced paragraphs format, morally as close to "plaintext" as you can be with a couple of diagrams which could have been ASCII art...

And if the diagrams had been ASCII art diagrams (eg https://twitter.com/thorstenball/status/1498541884796542977 ), OP could fix the typo in the diagram with a keystroke.

Cheers for the heads-up on the typo. The diagram's an SVG, with the labels being in plain ASCII. One keystroke is all it took indeed! :P

On the serious side, ASCII art diagrams are splendid and I very often use them myself, though they can get quite complex and thus messy to maintain. There comes a certain point where they lose their simplicity, sadly.

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