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World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

reuters.com

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Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#101

Post by alliao »

alliao wrote: post #8
nefitty wrote: post #5

> Last year, researchers at the London School of Economics concluded from a review of 300 scientific studies that octopus were sentient beings capable of experiencing distress and happiness, and that high-welfare farming would be impossible. I don't understand how someone can decide to ignore that in an effort to make money. I fear that if we don't more quickly move the Overton window on the suffering of sentient cre…

the same would apply to pretty much all animals no? and dare I say plants too?

by the way love the lab food concept due to this, don't really trust big Ag/Pharma would leave us alone though; there're profits to be made damnit.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#102

Post by challenger-derp »

rectang wrote: post #54
vmception wrote: post #33

It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings, I don't understand why grown adults are just reaching a cognitive maturity to notice that and making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that. These seem to be two separate things to me? Can someone shed light on both: a) why these are related concepts b) your journey to cognitiv…

One perspective: The universe is indifferent to your ethics and whether they are self-consistent or inconsistent. Choices "matter" insofar as they have observable effects that somebody cares about, but ultimately all morality is constructed. And so, why not a draw a line here, or over there, or instead way out there?

Another perspective: people are not indifferent to the set of ethics their community subscribes to. Ethics help form a common understanding about what it means to be a part of a community. Sure, morality is constructed and observable choices matter more. But morality is an aspect that separates humans from "beasts". Ditch morality and some get that much closer to considering atrocities -- e.g. enslavement of weaker groups, authoritarianism over entire populations -- because after all, "the universe is indifferent to your ethics [...]".

> why not a draw a line here, or over there, or instead way out there?

Do people who are sensitive to/ take into consideration the pains of weaker beings sound/feel like a pleasant group to be a part of? And yes, there are trade-offs.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#103

Post by sweetheart »

asdff wrote: post #99
sweetheart wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you think we grow those bigger animals though? We grow plants to feed them and convert those plant calories to animal calories at a mind bogglingly inefficient rate. If you want to reduce death and suffering overall, sticking to plants only is the best route.

We also grow plants to burn in F150s. OTOH you also cannot convert all the pastoral land into agricultural land. In fact its probably pastoral land in the first place because the land is not that possible to farm on otherwise (e.g. hilly/narrow/rock laden pastures which are quite common across hilly areas like appalachia). The fact is there are good ways to grow animals and plants, and bad ways, and we should just fo…

Kurzgesagt has a great video explaining how grass fed beef isn’t really very viable at all. I suggest you watch it. It came out a couple months ago and talks about this at length. Give it a google.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#104

Post by nefitty »

makeitdouble wrote: post #70
vmception wrote: post #33

It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings, I don't understand why grown adults are just reaching a cognitive maturity to notice that and making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that. These seem to be two separate things to me? Can someone shed light on both: a) why these are related concepts b) your journey to cognitiv…

I think it would less a question of maturity and more of acceptance of societal values. Fundamentally eating meat is a behavior our societies want to preserve; setting exceptions gives some leeway and carve safe spaces, while also making the rule more powerful. For instance settings pets as off limit make it clearer that non-pets are for consumption. Farmers can spend time and develop attachment to their cows, unders…

I don't know if there's a word for it besides the adjacent "speciesm" but the clumsy word "desentientize" popped up in my head as an ethical corollary to "dehumanization".

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#105

Post by Tomis02 »

rectang wrote: post #54
vmception wrote: post #33

It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings, I don't understand why grown adults are just reaching a cognitive maturity to notice that and making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that. These seem to be two separate things to me? Can someone shed light on both: a) why these are related concepts b) your journey to cognitiv…

One perspective: The universe is indifferent to your ethics and whether they are self-consistent or inconsistent. Choices "matter" insofar as they have observable effects that somebody cares about, but ultimately all morality is constructed. And so, why not a draw a line here, or over there, or instead way out there?

This type of moral relativism is what leads to world wars, at which point people come back to their senses and proceed to behave, until the next generation comes along to repeat the same mistakes.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#106

Post by pensatoio »

AngryData wrote: post #92
honkycat wrote: post #28

By all accounts octopus intelligence is extremely overblown. And "sentience" is an extremely low bar. Compare the intelligence of a cow or pig or similar mammal to an octopus and the mammal will DESTROY the octopus. We tolerate farming these animals. Much to our own detriment in terms of health, and nutrition, and environmental impact, land usage, and water usage. Plus there is the problem of breeding MRSA. Plus they…

Are there study's to back up the lack of octopus intelligence? Because if we are comparing octopus to other farm animals, most farm animals are dumb as a box of rocks compared to wild cousins or ancestors. We bred most farm animals to be dumb in process of domestication in order to keep them contained, the smart ones can escape, while the dumb ones get easily bred. Ive never seen anything to make me believe my cows a…

I would argue you need set a bar for intelligence and then prove a creature meets or exceeds it. Trying to come at it from the other end leaves you in impossible situations where extremes like, "trees are connected and therefore are sentient," become an acceptable motivation.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#107

Post by adolph »

jodrellblank wrote: post #6
nefitty wrote: post #5

> Last year, researchers at the London School of Economics concluded from a review of 300 scientific studies that octopus were sentient beings capable of experiencing distress and happiness, and that high-welfare farming would be impossible. I don't understand how someone can decide to ignore that in an effort to make money. I fear that if we don't more quickly move the Overton window on the suffering of sentient cre…

Is it not clear that cows experience distress? And we farm and eat those. Or is this conclusion that octopuses experience distress and other animals are p-zombies which only react in a way that looks like distress but might be emotionally neutral inside?

Yes, Temple Grandin’s work to reduce animal distress is very important.

Grandin also developed an objective, numerical scoring system for assessing animal welfare at slaughtering plants. The use of this scoring system resulted in significant improvements in animal stunning and handling during slaughter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin

Edit for quote format

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#108

Post by sweetheart »

asdff wrote: post #85
gerdesj wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I shall instruct my octopodal mates to avoid hot baths and go for the incineration option instead. This is a tricky one. Where do you draw the line as an omnivore?

If its been distributed here, prepped, and offered for sale, I might as well eat it since its there anyhow. Better conditions for animals will come from legislation and not consumer choices.

You don’t think individuals collective buying habits influence macro trends in supply?

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#109

Post by throwaway5752 »

WaxProlix wrote: post #48
pranith wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even cows are extremely intelligent and emotional animals. Did you stop eating them?

For me, the answer was yes. I stopped eating pigs first, and then cows and other mammals, and then octopi (octopodes?). I've been cutting back further on chicken and fish, too, though I eat a lot of eggs and some dairy still. I don't know that it's morally right or something, but it doesn't cost much and the potential upside seems high enough to do it.

It helps the planet, is good for my health, reduces deaths of sentient beings to feed me, has greater trophic efficiency... and the big thing is that vegetarian food and vegan food tastes good. I still eat meat periodically, but I feel much better and happier since I've reduced my meat consumption greatly.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#110

Post by Czarcasm »

lisper wrote: post #15
pranith wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even cows are extremely intelligent and emotional animals. Did you stop eating them?

Pigs and chickens too.

Chickens are amazingly stupid, disloyal, impulsive animals. Not anywhere close to pigs, and far away from octopi. (I grew up on a farm with both chickens and pigs).
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