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UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

noplacetohide.org.uk

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Re: UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

#101

Post by m12k »

collegeburner wrote: post #91
styeco wrote: post #25

Sorry for the choice words, but shit like this makes my blood boil. You're not trying to "keep our children safe" motherfucker, and you know it. You're trying to prevent people from being able to have private conversations, so your secret agencies can harvest all the data from everyone easily. To phrase it as "but think of the children" is instrumentalizing the actual victims of child abuse and you should be ashamed.

It's a great tactic. Gun grabbers have been using it successfully in the UK, US and everywhere else.

Since when have gun grabbers have any success in the US? From the outside, it seems the US has decided it would rather just live with regular school shootings than deny its citizens access to lethal weapons. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27No_Way_To_Prevent_This,%27_...

Re: UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

#102

Post by collegeburner »

m12k wrote: post #101
collegeburner wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a great tactic. Gun grabbers have been using it successfully in the UK, US and everywhere else.

Since when have gun grabbers have any success in the US? From the outside, it seems the US has decided it would rather just live with regular school shootings than deny its citizens access to lethal weapons. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27No_Way_To_Prevent_This,%27_...

1930s machine guns, short barrel rifles and shotguns, destructive devices and AOWs got a $200 tax, cost prohibative at the time for most people. 1960s more restrictions on FFLs and on types of guns especially imports, both raise prices and reduce availability more. 1980s new transferrable machineguns banned so now existing ones cost more than a car. 1990s handgun age raised to 21. And you steppers keep saying "it's not enough". If the cost of freedom is school shootings then so be it. We could cut down lots of other crime with a police state but don't because it's wrong.

You may as well support banning E2EE because nobody needs it.

Re: UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

#103

Post by maxerickson »

collegeburner wrote: post #102
m12k wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when have gun grabbers have any success in the US? From the outside, it seems the US has decided it would rather just live with regular school shootings than deny its citizens access to lethal weapons. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27No_Way_To_Prevent_This,%27_...

1930s machine guns, short barrel rifles and shotguns, destructive devices and AOWs got a $200 tax, cost prohibative at the time for most people. 1960s more restrictions on FFLs and on types of guns especially imports, both raise prices and reduce availability more. 1980s new transferrable machineguns banned so now existing ones cost more than a car. 1990s handgun age raised to 21. And you steppers keep saying "it's n…

We should amend the constitution and then make permitted ownership of single shot bolt action rifles the only widespread form of personal gun ownership. Plenty capable enough for sport hunting.

That would be enough.

There would be people made less safe by such a restrictive regime! Of course a much larger number would be safer. Tradeoffs are exactly what they sound like.

Re: UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

#106

Post by jackdrb »

I don't think there's been a government more willing to wheel out the 'Think of the Children' defense (or other similar meaningless done-to-death arguments such as stopping terrorists etc.) than the UK government, and a populous more willing to lap it up at every turn. (Remember Cameron's anti-porn and anti-encryption crusade? Remember Theresa May banging on about the very same things?) Some stances are just perpetually expected to be brought at some point, at least in my eyes, and it can be quite tiring to fight the same battles and arguments again and again, which I suppose is the whole point of beating said stances over the electorate, until they relent.

Given the current precarious position of PM Johnson though, I do not see this actually doing anything just yet other than being a flagrant distraction/appeasement/corruption/all of he above.

Re: UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

#107

Post by Youden »

styeco wrote: post #25

Sorry for the choice words, but shit like this makes my blood boil. You're not trying to "keep our children safe" motherfucker, and you know it. You're trying to prevent people from being able to have private conversations, so your secret agencies can harvest all the data from everyone easily. To phrase it as "but think of the children" is instrumentalizing the actual victims of child abuse and you should be ashamed.

You might not realize it but there really are people who honestly, genuinely, in their heart-of-hearts think this way and if you want to have a chance at inducing real change in the world, you need to acknowledge that they exist and see things from their point of view.

It's easy to forget but not everyone lives in a bubble full of privacy-conscious techfolk. There are people whose children were groomed online and convinced to submit themselves to sexual abuse. There are people who were those children. There are the law enforcement officers and NGOs dedicated to fighting this stuff. These people are all real. They all exist.

Other people are parents. They see the stories, they worry that it'll happen to their own children. Whether you like it or not, this justification garners sympathy from a not-insignificant number of people.

Often, these people don't understand E2E encryption or why they should give a hoot about it. They see the very real, tangible problem of child abuse on one side and some kind of vague objection from technical people on the other.

If you want to move past venting and have a real chance of inducing change, you need to acknowledge that other people with very different worldviews exist and you need to think about how to engage with them, see things from their point of view and convince them that E2E encryption should be protected.

Re: UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

#108

Post by charcircuit »

collegeburner wrote: post #94
charcircuit wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And you think our police will have the resources do do anything for those 99%? I wish they did. As more data aggregators become available to LE I hope it can make more people responsible for their actions. Technology will allow LE to scale to actually handle enforcing the law over large regions using fewer actual humans.

No it should be hard to reliably enforce the law. Otherwise we have a police state and it is easy to enforce authiritarian laws.

If people want authoritarian laws, then let them have it.

Re: UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

#109

Post by Arathorn »

eptcyka wrote: post #12

Previous discussion can be found here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29978952

This isn’t really a dupe ftr; the previous comments were about a leak of the campaign - whereas the campaign is now launched and it needs all the attention it can get to avoid the UK trying to legislate against E2EE… cc dang

Re: UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

#110

Post by CodeGlitch »

How about this as a solution instead:

Make it in law that if a convicted offender is found to have used a messaging platform to send/receive material, then heavily fine the company that was used in the messaging - but only if they had failed to report the offence. To operate in the UK the company has to pay these fines.

This puts the ball in the company's court - like it should be.

Now the messaging-platform could claim that since it's E2EE they have no visibility on what's being sent/received, but I believe technical solutions exist for this - E.g. pictures and videos go through a post-processing client-side to remove identifiable data (faces in images, text in images, that sort of thing). The original unmodified image is sent E2EE, and the post-processed one is sent to the company and then it's up to them to identify offending images.

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