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Thank You, Valve

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Re: Thank You, Valve

#101

Post by dagw »

oblio wrote: post #99
busterarm wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The serious cheats in competitive games these days don't rely on hacking the game anymore. They use a separate computer connected taking your HDMI out as an input and then controls your mouse and keyboard inputs. They use ML models and OpenCV. You watch the second computer's monitor and it draws huge boxes around things you shoot and it assists your aim. It doesn't even have to be a PC game, you can do the same with…

Do you have some links for this? It sounds super interesting.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/07/cheat-maker-brags-of-...

There are also videos on Youtube demonstrating it in actions

Re: Thank You, Valve

#102

Post by rafale »

busterarm wrote: post #82
dagw wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I played competitive video games seriously I would absolutely want them to take cheating seriously and take any necessary measure to stop it. At the same time I think they should also make the most serious kernel/driver level anti-cheat software optional. If you don't to want to install it you can still play the game, just not on any of the 'pro' servers. Think of it a bit like doping tests in sports. As long as y…

The serious cheats in competitive games these days don't rely on hacking the game anymore. They use a separate computer connected taking your HDMI out as an input and then controls your mouse and keyboard inputs. They use ML models and OpenCV. You watch the second computer's monitor and it draws huge boxes around things you shoot and it assists your aim. It doesn't even have to be a PC game, you can do the same with…

The setup makes it impractical. You would need a very powerful computer to run it in real time. And it won't tell you about what u can't see. You would need to do the same for audio and game mechanics.

Check what a top player can do: https://youtu.be/8Qf5Xlty1Cg I doubt an AI will be anywhere close in the next 10 years.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#103

Post by motoboi »

Rooster61 wrote: post #28

I dig most of this article, and I do applaud the work Valve is doing for the Linux gaming ecosystem, but I draw a line at supporting kernel level anti-cheat drivers. That trend in gaming bothers me to no end, and I refuse to knowingly install a game that features one. The presence of 15 year old script kiddies using aimbots does NOT IN ANY WAY justify having kernel level control over my machine, Linux or otherwise. V…

Competitive gaming is a thing. For those cases, Valve can distribute a linux gaming OS with anti-cheat mechanisms. Then restrict competitive participation to that OS.

That or giving up the problem.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#104

Post by WelcomeShorty »

oblio wrote: post #99
busterarm wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The serious cheats in competitive games these days don't rely on hacking the game anymore. They use a separate computer connected taking your HDMI out as an input and then controls your mouse and keyboard inputs. They use ML models and OpenCV. You watch the second computer's monitor and it draws huge boxes around things you shoot and it assists your aim. It doesn't even have to be a PC game, you can do the same with…

Do you have some links for this? It sounds super interesting.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27790723

But there is plenty when you google the key words.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#105

Post by judge2020 »

Rooster61 wrote: post #28

I dig most of this article, and I do applaud the work Valve is doing for the Linux gaming ecosystem, but I draw a line at supporting kernel level anti-cheat drivers. That trend in gaming bothers me to no end, and I refuse to knowingly install a game that features one. The presence of 15 year old script kiddies using aimbots does NOT IN ANY WAY justify having kernel level control over my machine, Linux or otherwise. V…

> Add on the fact that these programs are black boxes by design, and all of the sudden a company essentially has free reign to do whatever they want with your machine under your nose.

Unless you run flatpak, nix, lxc containers, or some other process isolation scheme, all programs on eg. A debian desktop have this sort of free reign. It’s not uncommon for accidents to happen that take out chunks of a system[0].

0: https://github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee-Old-and-abbandoned/issue...

Re: Thank You, Valve

#107

Post by pdimitar »

All well and good and I support Valve's dedication as well. They are doing what everyone else is afraid of doing. Kudos!

One thing: stay the hell away from my kernel. I use Linux for the freedom it gives me. If you are going to install a rootkit just so I don't aim-bot in your precious little game, the deal is off.

I'll keep a close eye this year on how do you install Steam's layer on Linux. `sudo` will not be ever involved! If I can't install it just in my $HOME directory without kernel shenanigans then they'll get a huge "Nope!" from me.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#108

Post by Rooster61 »

sbarre wrote: post #97
Rooster61 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wild how this turned from "I don't want a game-related kernel-level driver in my system" to "I don't want China spying on me" in one reply. Fair criticism. I used Tencent as the example as they are one of the most prominent offenders. I don't trust any company to install these drivers, period, Chinese or otherwise. > You lost me there to be honest, if you think the "true" purpose of anti-cheat drivers is for a fore…

So here's a question: What is it about games that makes you particularly worried about this? Why is that an industry that is more susceptible to this kind of "nefarious" activity as you put it? Wouldn't it make more sense for business-related products to do this, since the odds of being on a computer that has actual useful information to steal would be much, much higher? Why would a company invest in this kind of tec…

> What is it about games that makes you particularly worried about this? Why is that an industry that is more susceptible to this kind of "nefarious" activity as you put it?

Because it targets a younger, more ignorant user base that is much more likely than a company with security audits to blindly install. I certainly was at that age.

> Wouldn't it make more sense for business-related products to do this, since the odds of being on a computer that has actual useful information to steal would be much, much higher?

It does happen, but its less successful due to folks that work in operational security. If I suggested installing software with this type of driver at any job I've ever worked at with a security professional halfway worth their salt, I'd instantly be rejected.

> full of people who will go over it with a fine-toothed comb (gamers are obsessive)

Show me a gamer that has seen the code of one of these drivers. Name a single person. Those programs are black box by design.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#109

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

noirbot wrote: post #62
Xelbair wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care for underlying motives as long as the results are aligned with mine. The end result is that landscape is better for the customer. I seriously do not get why people think that companies do 'good' for any other reason than money.

I don't think anyone is implying they did it for any other reason. Only a bunch of people jumping on to a seemingly good thing a company did to be a killjoy about it. Yes, they're clearly doing this to help the Steam Deck and other projects. I'm sure that will make them money and I'm sure someone at the company will do something with that money that people object to. That's just the nature of living in anything beyon…

>Only a bunch of people jumping on to a seemingly good thing a company did to be a killjoy about it.

That's 100% the reaction here every time Microsoft launches something benefiting devs and consumers. Everything is scrutinized with skepticism. Why should other billion dollar tech companies get a pass? Or why the double standards?

How do you think Valve would be towards consumers if they were to become a monopoly in the PC gaming sales space? Not knocking them, I'm just saying it's good to be paranoid when billion dollar tech companies are being too generous and benevolent with consumers, and not get romantically attached to these corporations.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#110

Post by gambiting »

realusername wrote: post #75
dagw wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I played competitive video games seriously I would absolutely want them to take cheating seriously and take any necessary measure to stop it. At the same time I think they should also make the most serious kernel/driver level anti-cheat software optional. If you don't to want to install it you can still play the game, just not on any of the 'pro' servers. Think of it a bit like doping tests in sports. As long as y…

I agree but it should only be present for pro competitions (and by pro I really mean playing is their job).

I disagree. As someone who plays online shooters only casually once or twice a week, nothing sucks more than having a full session in Apex ruined by an obvious cheater. The fact that I don't spend 8 hours a day doing this makes it far worse for me, the time for gaming is very limited when you have a small child and having it ruined because of some script kiddies is incredibly demoralizing.

Let me put it this way - I'd much rather play an online shooter with a hardcore kernel level anticheat than a one without it.

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