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How to Mislead with Facts

consilienceproject.org

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Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#101

Post by mindslight »

stirfish wrote: post #100
mindslight wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your example of how to mislead with non-factual strawmen. This example might be connected to reality if: 1. There actually was a law requiring individuals "wear masks all the time". 2. There actually was a law requiring individuals to get an "endless stream of boosters". 3. Alice respected the boundaries of private businesses that made wearing respiratory protection or vaccination a requirement of assoc…

>Alice respected personal preferences of people wearing respiratory protection, I've found that a lot of people think of the masks like a gas mask - supposed to keep everything bad out. They are more like the breath guard at the salad bar - keeping you from exhaling droplets six feet in front of you. Bob's mask protects Alice more than it protects Bob.

If you're still making do with an ersatz cloth mask, sure. I've been wearing a P100 from the start of the pandemic. Both bowls of political Kool Aid are actively harmful - framing PPE as being about protecting others has also damaged the discourse.

Edit: also, I do agree that keeping stuff out of the air is preferable to filtering it after the fact (especially with mucous membranes etc). This concern is addressed somewhat by (3), and also by the additional point that Alice needs to demonstrate empathy of understanding and respecting Bob's choice as well.

Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#102

Post by stirfish »

mindslight wrote: post #101
stirfish wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Alice respected personal preferences of people wearing respiratory protection, I've found that a lot of people think of the masks like a gas mask - supposed to keep everything bad out. They are more like the breath guard at the salad bar - keeping you from exhaling droplets six feet in front of you. Bob's mask protects Alice more than it protects Bob.

If you're still making do with an ersatz cloth mask, sure. I've been wearing a P100 from the start of the pandemic. Both bowls of political Kool Aid are actively harmful - framing PPE as being about protecting others has also damaged the discourse. Edit: also, I do agree that keeping stuff out of the air is preferable to filtering it after the fact (especially with mucous membranes etc). This concern is addressed som…

Where did you get your P100? Everywhere around me has been out of both those and oxygen tanks. It's made welding pretty difficult.

Edit: I appreciate your thorough and patient response to the parent comment.

Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#103

Post by dang »

beachy wrote: post #4

This article is desperately in need of some examples. I can't believe there isn't one.

That may be a strategic decision. The minute they provide examples, they start losing anyone in their audience who is pre-committed politically to that example.

Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#104

Post by YATA0 »

Ma8ee wrote: post #41
xdennis wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the jobs are less valuable, not due to who's doing them but due to the market (i.e. all of us) seeing them as less valuable. Teachers and nannies aren't paid a whole lot because they're easily replaceable, not because they're jobs dominated by women. Doctors used to be exclusively men. Have salaries gone down now that women make up a significant percent of the number of doctors?

> Because the jobs are less valuable, not due to who's doing them but due to the market (i.e. all of us) seeing them as less valuable. It is a rather sad and naive view of the value of work if you think that it is decided by market value. My work as a developer has a high market value because what I do is generating revenue for my employer. The work of the teacher who shapes the future of our children or the work of…

>Yes. I don't have the time to dig up the sources right now, and I don't remember seeing it specifically about doctors, but in many lines of work the relative salaries have gone down when traditionally male professions have been taken over more and more by women.

No. I don't have the time to dig up the sources right now, and I don't remember seeing it specifically about doctors, but in many lines of work the relative salaries have gone up when traditionally male professions have been taken over more and more by women.

"That which can be asserted without evidence..."

Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#105

Post by dang »

dandanua wrote: post #22
oreally wrote: post #6

"There are no facts, only interpretations." - Nietzsche

[flagged]

Besides being flamebait and against the site guidelines, that's a painfully shallow dismissal, and we don't want those here. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#107

Post by mindslight »

stirfish wrote: post #102
mindslight wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're still making do with an ersatz cloth mask, sure. I've been wearing a P100 from the start of the pandemic. Both bowls of political Kool Aid are actively harmful - framing PPE as being about protecting others has also damaged the discourse. Edit: also, I do agree that keeping stuff out of the air is preferable to filtering it after the fact (especially with mucous membranes etc). This concern is addressed som…

Where did you get your P100? Everywhere around me has been out of both those and oxygen tanks. It's made welding pretty difficult. Edit: I appreciate your thorough and patient response to the parent comment.

I had them before the pandemic, but I've seen them in stock quite regularly. Zoro appears to have my 3M 7503 half-face piece and 2297 filters in stock right now. For welding you might want a proper vapor filter though (60921?). 3M has some nice pdfs that list all the different options.

For pandemic usage when I need to filter my exhale, I disabled the check valves by popping the mask apart, removing all 3 valve flaps, and sealing up the output hole. This makes air flow through the filters bidirectionally. I've also seen a 3d-printed adapter for the 6100 series (I think) that attaches a third filter to the output. Separate input and output filters is probably a better way to go.

Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#108

Post by defaultprimate »

ComradePhil wrote: post #89

Slightly different perspective: facts are completely unimportant, because: - what seems like a fact may not be a "fact" at all, it may be a misunderstanding - knowing all the known facts may give you a false sense of understanding of the truth; one more fact can change your entire outlook... and yet one more can change that... you don't know the facts you don't know If certain truths are probable, the facts known tod…

You should read Karl Popper's Conjectures and Refutations.

You can be open to new evidence defining what objective truth is without dismissing the existence of objective truth due to unknown unknowns.

Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#109

Post by drran »

Ma8ee wrote: post #93
drran wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why it is mostly women who reduce their work hours while the kids are small and why not more men do the same. Because evolution did this decision for us. Woman stays with children, while man risk their lives, because those, which did the opposite, lose evolutionary competition.

No, it didn’t. You may choose to follow old traditions that don’t make sense any more, but that is something you choose. There are very few jobs today where physical strength make a difference, and before the industrial revolution the fathers were mostly at home and played important parts in raising the children.

If you look at birth and death rates, you will see that more boys are born, but mortality for boys is higher[0]. Moreover, you will see same numbers as for salary difference. Natural selection did not stop that, so it's beneficial for society somehow.

[0]: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/infant-death-rates-by-cau...

Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#110

Post by hunterb123 »

blueflow wrote: post #63
tgv wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many words that we consider "abstract" are made up What have you been smoking? All words are made up. But that isn't related to the question fact vs interpretation at all. The word "Earth" is made up, your name is made up, "human" is made up, the air that you breathe is made up, yet you are (most likely) a human on Earth, and you'd hate it if that air suddenly disappeared. Anyway, the quote contradicts itself/reduc…

"Earth", "Air" and "Human" are not abstract nouns because they have physical things we can match those words to. Contrast that to abstract nouns like "truth", "danger" or "happiness", which are actually interpretations of something other. Statements using these tend to be opinions or non-verifiable. Fact-Checking doesn't work for them.

That supports what @tgv is saying, not the quote.

> "There are no facts, only interpretations.

Too absolute, some things are objective, some subjective.

Not everything is subjective, like he's implying.

The quote sounds deep, but it falls apart to 3rd grade reading comprehension.

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