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Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

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101–110 of 145 posts

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#101
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A clarification then (the reply tree seems to halt, so I'm posting this higher up): I run into a lot of atheists these days who've read Dawkins, Dennett, Sam Harris, maybe even Stephen Pinker, heck maybe even the whole John Brockman crew of "Brights" and so forth. And that's all, and I don't understand that. I'm no exemplar of intellectual integrity, but I'm just too curious to not read contrary points of view. I tho…

A good argument is enough. I'm a mathematician and I have not read any of the original papers of Euler, Gauss, etc. but understand and accept their results fully. To me, philosophical and theological reasoning are not fundamental as they may be to you, because I have accepted they are an outcome of a particular brain architecture with its own tendencies and biases, itself an outcome of a more general process. This ar…

> A good argument is enough. I'm a mathematician and I have not read any of the original papers of Euler, Gauss, etc. but understand and accept their results fully.

Here what would answer one of my friends. He happen believe atheism is true, but more importantly, he's a literary person. So:

"To understand [such and such author]'s ideas and concepts, you have to impregnate yourself with their original thoughts. That is, you must read their original works. Secondary sources just won't do."

I tried to reply that I didn't need to read Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica to understand Newtonian physics, but he seems to think that philosophy is different. (But then, where to that "Philosophiæ" comes from? Oh yeah, he meant literary philosophy, of the kind that somehow cannot be true nor false.)

I think the root of the problem is something akin to dualism. Many people (including some atheists) postulate that between the laws of physics and the human soul, there is something that is not only unexplained (true), but actually unexplainable. In other words, "Poof Magic", though they won't ever use that ridiculous wording. So, below the "Poof Magic" threshold, we have the lowly matters that you can indeed explain. Above it, the very notion of truth is muddled.

As you may guess, "science" is placed below the threshold, and "philosophy" is placed above. The first is about facts we can check, about theories that can be improved or disproved. The second is more about schools of thought, which are neither right nor wrong, neither true nor false, they just "are" (this way, no one can claim his own school of thought is better than any other).

Another key difference between "science" and "philosophy" is the treatment of secondary sources. They can be wonderful for "science", but they are worthless for "philosophy". To understand a philosopher's ideas, you must "impregnate yourself with his thoughts", that is, read his original works. And of course you are not allowed to judge the veracity of those works.

Now here is the killer argument: theology is to be placed above the "Poof Magic" threshold. Therefore, (i) you have to read them all before you claim anything about them, and (ii) you cannot say they were false anyway, it's just a school of though, that is "by definition" no worse nor better than any other.

I have never defeated the killer argument. I need to get rid of the "Poof Magic" nonsense first, and the burden of proof is always on my shoulders. Even If I manage shake it, the real reason why people make the killer argument is because its comfortable. They can never be wrong with it, and it avoids arguments.

But, you know, if we disagree, at least one of us must be mistaken, right? Wouldn't it be interesting to know who?

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#102

Dawkins doesn't bother me any more than any other atheist I've read. The fact that he lives and is popular in my time makes him no more threatening to my faith than Thomas Paine, Voltaire, Lucretius, A.J. Ayer or Bertrand Russell. I know where my faith fits in the history of ideas, and I'm comfortable in the capacious intellectual house it affords me. Dawkins is amusing at best, annoying at worst. As a philosophical…

[deleted]

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From reading a couple of replies now, I'm thinking that I didn't express myself well. I respect atheists, especially ones that have taken the time to think about the world and their place in it and the nature of truth. Most atheists are engaged with the big questions and that's more than I can say for most. I probably have more in common with the average atheist, in terms of our desire to engage big questions and dra…

I guess I'm curious for more clarification on your post then. I guess I don't get the point. I feel like it would be summarized, "Lots of people like to loudly be ignorant about their beliefs". I don't disagree with that, but I don't find it uniquely or even tilted towards atheism. Further, I still don't understand the reductive criticism on Dawkins. Again, I find much of his positioning to be directly related or rel…

To me Richard Dawkins is a bit like Carl Von Clausewitz or Nietzsche. In a sense they all see their respective fields with an astonishing clarity and try to lay it all out in the open. But due to the sheer size and complexity of their work, few in their audience posses necessary sophistication to understand it completely.

Thus Dawkins spawned a legion of believers that got everything mixed up and who by applying their teaching literally, become more dogmatic than their target.

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#104
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. The parent characterized Dawkins as "arrogant" and "pig headed", and now you've characterized him as "foaming at the mouth", on a "tirade" and a "dick". You've also misstated his argument. We get it. Many hate his message and because they can't argue coherently against that message, they mostly just call him names.

I see. I'm not sure you do. I think Dawkins is essentially right about how religion is evil, and I think he's done a great deal for the atheist "movement". At the same, he came off looking like a sexist in the Rebecca Watson fiasco. The point is, I think his message is correct and important, and yet I think he's probably a sexist. These two are orthogonal attributes.

I have an extremely bad feeling.

Lets suppose that religion is the root of all evil. So the atheist movement goes and in time erases religion from the world. Then what?

I don't think ideas exist in a vacuum. I think that for some types of ideas and ideals they can only be replaced by an idea of the same type.

And I do sense some (disturbing) religious elements in the atheist movement. Single mindedness would be the worst in my opinion.

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#105
post #88

As an atheist, I am uncomfortable with Dawkins' brand of atheism. It can get too close to the Thought Police for my liking. See this article of his: http://boingboing.net/2011/01/24/should-employers-be.html If a scientist is producing good research that is getting published in peer reviewed journals and is generally acknowledged to be contributing to the advancement of the field, I don't care how weird his personal b…

I think the concern Dawkins tries to show in that article is that it is very difficult to trust people with religious beliefs in certain fields because those beliefs necessarily introduce a bias.

It has to said that Dawkins is one of the most heavily baised authors I've ever read.

It makes it very difficult to trust his arguments about other religions, because he is so heavily biased towards his own... (and yes, I do think that when atheists hold such closed views as Dawkins that they are effectively religious).

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#106

Dawkins doesn't bother me any more than any other atheist I've read. The fact that he lives and is popular in my time makes him no more threatening to my faith than Thomas Paine, Voltaire, Lucretius, A.J. Ayer or Bertrand Russell. I know where my faith fits in the history of ideas, and I'm comfortable in the capacious intellectual house it affords me. Dawkins is amusing at best, annoying at worst. As a philosophical…

>>the absolute philosophical illiteracy of so many naively confident advocates of reductionist science and the silly caricatures of faith they hold to.

(I can agree that Dawkins doesn't really have the background to do the theological/philosophical detailed arguments.)

I just note that to be religious is to make claims about the world ("reality", for some form of meaning) that is not based on reason or proof of facts.

So I really can't see a reason to take any religious belief more seriously than Son of Sam's world view.

I'd be more impressed if you weren't limited to insults for a motivation of what makes your supernatural creatures more likely to exist than the flying spaghetti monster.

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#107
post #36
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know that there's some dangerous ideas put out there by fundamentalists, but for the most part, if they stick to themselves and are generally good people who don't interfere with others then I don't really care what they believe. It's easy to have this perspective if religious fundamentalism has not had a major impact on your life. However, if your parents were religious fundamentalists, you would likely view thi…

Earnest, educated, rational. Yes, these words might describe Dawkins, but well-meaning? I agree that indoctrination into a fundamentalist religion probably doesn't give a child the best chance at a happy, well balanced life. I think it is important that science continues to be made available, and people like Dawkins make it not only available, but easily digestible and understandable. But seriously, running around th…

>But seriously, running around the world, telling people they are "idiots" and to "fck off" if they don't see the world the way he does?*

Can you please point out when did he called people idiots and told them to fuck off?

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#108
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure you understood that his point was that an atheist using the Santa Claus argument sounds like a philosophical n00b...

No, I understand it completely. He's making the mistake however of assuming that anyone using the Santa Claus argument is attempting to make a philosophical point.

Perhaps analogous to the idea that anybody using an argument in favor of faith, no matter what terminology they couch it in, is attempting to make a rational point.

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#109

Dawkins doesn't bother me any more than any other atheist I've read. The fact that he lives and is popular in my time makes him no more threatening to my faith than Thomas Paine, Voltaire, Lucretius, A.J. Ayer or Bertrand Russell. I know where my faith fits in the history of ideas, and I'm comfortable in the capacious intellectual house it affords me. Dawkins is amusing at best, annoying at worst. As a philosophical…

I have always been a firm atheist viewing the church as "architecture and hypocrisy" but lately I try to be more open minded about other peoples beliefs. The marquee on the church down the road reads

"Freedom of the mind is the beginning of all other freedoms".

Great quote, and it reminded me that I have been too judgemental, which is what has bothered me most about religion.

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#110

Dawkins doesn't bother me any more than any other atheist I've read. The fact that he lives and is popular in my time makes him no more threatening to my faith than Thomas Paine, Voltaire, Lucretius, A.J. Ayer or Bertrand Russell. I know where my faith fits in the history of ideas, and I'm comfortable in the capacious intellectual house it affords me. Dawkins is amusing at best, annoying at worst. As a philosophical…

Beautifully written. As somebody who could probably best be described as some flavor of agnosticism (I've heard my viewpoints described as Apathetic Agnosticism) I agree with many of your points about the shrillness of Atheists.

I was raised in a highly religious home and at a very early age, six or seven, found myself quickly asking questions that were not answerable by even the most educated theists in my family (I have two doctors of theology in my extended family) -- or rather were answered with what could be summarized succinctly and disappointingly as "because God says so".

I can understand the beauty that such belief can create -- and the nostalgic view of that beauty that can color ones worldview...even if in the end their deep explorations into the questions of faith is met only with more and more elaborate phrasings of "because God says so".

There is a beauty in the brilliant work and mental energies gone into constructing elaborate philosophies and edifices of the soul justifying that simple phrase.

I've found many atheists capable of enjoying that beauty on many levels, but with so many being the first generation of their ilk, have lived a life of persecution, disaffection, dissatisfaction and disappointment blended with feelings of betrayal often end up as harshly rejectionary of anything that smells like something they've already defended themselves and dismissed thousands of times every day.

Personally, as a person of math, science and engineering, I've come to the conclusion that "is there a God?" is a non-question in the same vein as "should trees take accounting classes?" and find atheist consumption with answering that question with a "NO!" to be both tiresome and wasteful, but I understand why they feel the need to answer it, and why they need to answer it in a shout.

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