Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was really confused for a moment, I confused Oath Keepers for Promise Keepers... > Oath Keepers is an American far-right[1] anti-government militia[1][2] whose members claim to be defending the Constitution of the United States.[3] It encourages its members to disobey orders which they believe would violate the U.S. Constitution. Research on their membership determined that two thirds of the Oath Keepers are former…
>It encourages its members to disobey orders which they believe would violate the U.S. Constitution. Couldn't that also be stated as "It encourages its members to obey the law"?
Arizona Introduces a bill to make Bitcoin Legal Tender [pdf]
101–110 of 111 posts
Re: Arizona Introduces a bill to make Bitcoin Legal Tender [pdf]
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
Law dictionaries are neither binding nor, in many cases, very accurate as I have already indicated. As is language in general, I might add, no problem there. But a golden Arizona bitcoin would not be foreign
Could you clarify which definition you're using, in that case, and where you obtained it, and explain why it's a better definition than the US Code? > But a golden Arizona bitcoin would not be foreign The Constitution gives the Federal government the exclusive right to mint currency. Arizona isn't allowed to do that. Consider the possibility that if you're not aware of this basic fact, there may be other lackings in…
I'm looking at this like a coder, not like a vulture, and I might just not be aware of all the #pragmas #ifdefs and #includes
I m not working from any defition but here are some original ones from upto 1500's ME [1] The verb sense "offer" seems particularly relevant, the law grant providing a trade licence as well. The near homophone tinder catches my attention because through the German cognate Zunder I'm reminded of cent (c pronounced as z /ts/ is regular especially in older writing), supposedly a hundredth («The meaning shifted 17c. to "hundredth part" ...», suggested for ¢ in 1786 [2]) which wasn't very relevant to imperial Shilling and Pound. See also "Kirchenzehnt" (tithe, decima pars). It is well comparable to census [3] and accordingly taxation [4] My point being, it's about what the state may require.
The "code" is in effect a random assortment of decisions, it defines extensively, not intensively. The literal interpretation requires an intensive definition.
That said, I did not recognize "COIN MONEY" as verb. Oops. So people have to coin it DIY is what you are saying? :'-)
[1]: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-english-dictionary/dicti...
[2]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/cent
[3]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/census#etymonline_v_8349
[4]: past participle of censere "to assess", "... Latin census also was used for "one's wealth, one's worth, wealthiness."» (o.c.) – compare excise (taxes), Spanish tenir "have"; -der is also evident in Portuguese doar "to give, present", where -l- in intervocalic position is usually lost, mind blown.
Re: Arizona Introduces a bill to make Bitcoin Legal Tender [pdf]
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Legal tender" is an idiomatic term of art and refers to the category of things which one is obligated to accept in payment of a debt. It is not merely the intersection of "legal" and "tender". The vast majority of goods which are both "legal" and "tender" (i.e. legal to use for payments provided both parties agree to the exchange) are not "legal tender". To "make" something "legal tender" means to add the thing to t…
That's just not what the phrase usually means and you (all) are clearly using "make legal" phrasal verb. Ergo you are talking cow pat, because "legal tender" becomes collocated precisely around the time that the constitution was written; meaning, you are overinterpreting your premise. There may be reasonable precedent by now, I don't doubt it. See ngram [1] which suffers from scanos and the remaining pieces may be co…
> It was the doctrine of the middle ages that for every commodity or service there was a just money equivalent. This had been the dictum of the Roman law. "However diversified may be the object of an obligation, it is always transferable, in the eyes of the law, into the payment of a certain sum of money." Though the English law of contract was not fully developed before the time of Henry VIII., the action of debt which lay to recover a sum of money was one of the early actions developed, being in use at least as early as the time of Henry I., and it is from the pleas allowed in defense of such action that we have the word "tender." The debtor could of course discharge his obligation by payment of the sum claimed; but sometimes, when there was dissatisfaction on the part of the creditor, he could acquit himself by tender to the creditor of the amount admitted by him as due. Should the creditor refuse the sum tendered, the debtor could then deposit it with the court, leaving with the court the question of the adequacy of the tender. (emphasis added)
[0] Breckinridge, S P. "Legal tender, a study in English and American monetary history". 1903. Page 22. https://archive.org/download/legaltenderstudy00brecuoft/lega...>
Re: Arizona Introduces a bill to make Bitcoin Legal Tender [pdf]
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
>It encourages its members to disobey orders which they believe would violate the U.S. Constitution. Couldn't that also be stated as "It encourages its members to obey the law"?
The law as they (weirdly) interpret it . It's a https://www.theonion.com/area-man-passionate-defender-of-wha... scenario. I can rightly claim that the First Amendment seems to mean I can found a religion that features human sacrifices at church every Sunday, but I'll be fairly rapidly shut down if I try it.
Re: Arizona Introduces a bill to make Bitcoin Legal Tender [pdf]
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
But if the restaurant states that they don't accept cash, then you agreed to those terms.
The whole point of legal tender is that it overrides any terms you may have agreed to beforehand.
Re: Arizona Introduces a bill to make Bitcoin Legal Tender [pdf]
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oh, so we are not talking about common sense anymore but about proscriptive law. In other words, there is nothing to understand here. The constitution says "tender", which might be tenuous to lean on, but you have to admit that "shall not make legal" vs "shall not make" is equivalent to saying "English is the language of this sentence", a classical liar's paradox, because it could mean anything depending which langua…
It says "a Tender in Payment of Debts", which is ... the same thing. I get that you want to argue that the words are open to interpretation. To the extent that they are, these particular words have been interpreted, they now have definitions which are accepted and considering binding as a matter of legal precedent; legal precedent being the underlying basis of the common law. It seems pretty clear that you either don…
I am basicly saying that the interpretation is unacceptable, and that "they have been interpreted" is not an inherent quality of the word, because, as you have missed or may find irrelevant and impossibly complicated, like the finders of facts might, I'm interested in the historical linguistics of it and the implications for pragmatics and essentially discourse analysis. After all you are clearly saying that the intent matters.
In that sense, fuck you, no offense intended.
The way the law works feels like an insult often enough and the device of punishment is a most obvious outflow of that. It may have its reasons, but those are still quite subjective, wanton, and not at all as objective as you make them out to be.
Re: Arizona Introduces a bill to make Bitcoin Legal Tender [pdf]
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's just not what the phrase usually means and you (all) are clearly using "make legal" phrasal verb. Ergo you are talking cow pat, because "legal tender" becomes collocated precisely around the time that the constitution was written; meaning, you are overinterpreting your premise. There may be reasonable precedent by now, I don't doubt it. See ngram [1] which suffers from scanos and the remaining pieces may be co…
As many other commenters have already pointed out to you, that is exactly what the phrase usually means in this context, and more importantly it's exactly what the original phrase "make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts" was understood to mean in the U.S. Constitution at the time it was written and ratified. The use of "tender" in this way long predates the writing of the U.S. Constituti…
So, all things considered, Breckinridge is likely refering to one of those maximally English etymologies.
I reckognize that this has little bearing on an 18th century interpretation if the word was free to be interpeted. It just has nothing to do with literal interpretation, and beyond that I'm not really interested, or not equipped to argue on the basis of case law.
Re: Arizona Introduces a bill to make Bitcoin Legal Tender [pdf]
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
The whole point of legal tender is that it overrides any terms you may have agreed to beforehand.
That's not accurate. It's merely establishing the default behavior.
Re: Arizona Introduces a bill to make Bitcoin Legal Tender [pdf]
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are commiting an etymological fallacy. What counts first of all is what legal tender has been in name when the constitution was written. Second, the meaning of the word when the bill was written may have reasonably changed and it may still be sensible. If this is warranted, because the state has the power to mint gold coins, they can peg the gold coin to the bitcoin, if you want to see it that way. This is illuso…
This is word salad. The states do not have the power to mint gold coins; they only have the right to require that gold coins be accepted for the payment of monetary debt. Only the Federal government has the right to mint coins, a power reserved by Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5 - which similarly reserves the right to determine value of coins. This is very simple, it is very straightforward; anyone with a grounding in…
That was due to a misreading on my part.
> doesn't the fact that everyone in this thread disagrees with your interpretation at essentially every level give you a bit of pause?
Quite the opposite, it gave the impression you are willing to waste your time.
Re: Arizona Introduces a bill to make Bitcoin Legal Tender [pdf]
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you order at the counter and pay before eating, a restaurant can deny cash. If you sit down and eat all the food, then they bring you the check, they must accept cash (because now you owe a "debt").
But if the restaurant states that they don't accept cash, then you agreed to those terms.