Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#101

Post by coldtea » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 12:21 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #73

coldtea wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This sort of began when we all got the impression that software should be free, or that we pay a low price once and get indefinite free upgrades. Blame the victim? We din't get any impression, as we don't set the prices. The companies set those prices. For example Adobe customers never got or set any impression that "software should be free/low price". They paid 100s to 1000s of dollars for each update or package r…

Yeah, it's not really about free software; it's about paying salaries. Recurring expenses inevitably result in business models optimized for recurring revenues. That was always the case; it just so happened that the expansion of industrial production of goods was so vast for so long, that this was kinda hidden (and it was hard to justify - there are only so many widgets you can continuously supply to customers). Now…

>Yeah, it's not really about free software; it's about paying salaries

Well, that's on the software maker.

Why pay salaries in perpetuity for something made and sold once?

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#102

Post by sbuk » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 12:21 PM UTC

Ok. What is the solution? I see the list of complaints, and empathise with most, but what is the solution? It’s been pointed out elsewhere in this thread that FOSS devs are complaining about not being paid, so clearly that model is broken too. What is your solution?

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#103

Post by alenmilk » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 12:22 PM UTC

>What has the world come to, where technology has been appropriated and we are left paying rents every month and companies are increasingly becoming user-hostile and predatory and monopolistic!

This is the issue. While the subscription model may be the right choice forward it may also be the catalyst of a collapse (like the dotcom bust) if the users get bullied enough.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#104

Post by skilled » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 12:25 PM UTC

harry-wood wrote: post #84

skilled wrote: post #24

It's actually getting wild "out there". WordPress was once a really good choice for a blogging platform. Now, majority of the "popular" plugins are strictly businesses. E.g. You can use our API for 100 calls a month, either pay up to use this plugin more or wait another 30 days to get another 100 calls. And yes, it is mostly the cost of convenience. For example, I manage my own server not because it's cheaper (which…

Yes. I didn't do much with wordpress for years, but always thought of it as a very open-source-ish community. Recently I find myself taking on a pre-existing wordpress site with a lot of plugins. I was quite surprised by the way so many plugins are available for $$$. It's sort of impressive "professionalisation" of the ecosystem. I can see it's allowing/encouraging glossy presentation, explanatory videos, documentati…

Yep. I used to spend a lot of time working with WordPress sites, maybe 5 or so years ago. I don't have any factual data for this, but I suspect that some of the plugin creators pivoted to a "greedy by design" strategy.

If you have had 1,000s of bloggers write about your free product, advertising it on your behalf for years. Why not take that success and squeeze the living soul out of it?

I mean, it's not like people are going to go back to their reviews or old blog posts to correct something. All the "juice" is still being passed to you, and search engines like Google are none the wiser.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#105

Post by MerelyMortal » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 12:26 PM UTC

baxtr wrote: post #98

MerelyMortal wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of software doesn't have to be a "service", such as Photoshop. Photoshop doesn't need to be connected to the internet and receive constant updates. There was never an issue with Photoshop versions having one-time fees.

Of course it does. Software and the components are never bug / loop hole free. SW development doesn't simply stop just because a version was released.

If that was the case, then Adobe delivered a defective product and should make the patch available to people who bought the one-time license.

Patches used to be a thing, right?

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#106

Post by dismalpedigree » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 12:26 PM UTC

anthropodie wrote: post #76

Three months ago I picked up new hobby: Self Hosting. It has been an amazing ride. I learned a lot and I also get peace of mind knowing I am in control of my data. I understand that there is no self-hosted alternative for certain SaaS services but I think that will change as more and more people choose to be in control of their data. This is a good place to start https://old.reddit.com/r/selfhosted

Completely agree. I took the leap hard. Had some steep learning curves, but working well now. Nextcloud, onlyoffice, mattermost, pihole running on a home server. shifted to ubuntu from mac.

The two most striking things are 1) how good the free software is. 2) how much less time i spend avoiding gotchas and dark patterns.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#107

Post by baxtr » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 12:28 PM UTC

MerelyMortal wrote: post #105

baxtr wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it does. Software and the components are never bug / loop hole free. SW development doesn't simply stop just because a version was released.

If that was the case, then Adobe delivered a defective product and should make the patch available to people who bought the one-time license. Patches used to be a thing, right?

Software is never ready :) that's the whole point.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#108

Post by cube2222 » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 12:29 PM UTC

I don't really share OP's impressions. I think the move to the subscription model is one of the best things that happened to our industry in the recent years.

It's a model which lets you sustainably sell software and keep working on it, delivering updates, etc.

The pay per update model forces the creator to release big feature updates, even if the features are just bloat, as bug fix releases and stability work will usually sell much worse. That's mostly fixed by the subscription model.

I don't see how these are user hostile.

Yeah, subscriptions that are hard to cancel are bad. But that's just a scam, not an inherent problem with subscriptions. I can go and cancel any subscription I have in a few clicks - with the best experience being in the Apple App Store, where I have a single place to manage all subscriptions paid through the App Store.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#109

Post by DoingIsLearning » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 12:32 PM UTC

jsmith99 wrote: post #55

Macha wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or that we pay a low price once and get indefinite free upgrades. To take IntelliJ as an example, I can't think of an improvement since 2018 that I really would pay for. Largely enabling that is why they moved to the subscription process because people like me would use IntelliJ 18 for five or so years then update for OS support or whatever. €100/yr is way more than I used to pay for intelliJ, €240/yr is way more t…

At least Microsoft are still making personal office subscriptions cheaper than buying office was. 5 users, each with several devices and their own terabyte of OneDrive, is £60 a year at many retailers. I assume they will jack up the price later.

> Microsoft are still making personal office subscriptions cheaper than buying office was.

Nah you are missing the forest for the trees. Office at the moment is a gateway drug for Microsoft to get you on their cloud services. Office is not an end product anymore, it is a hook to capture market into their cloud services. They could sell office at a loss and still make money from all the Corporate/government contracts they got hooked on Azure.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#110

Post by cinntaile » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 12:35 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #99

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not blaming the victim as there are no victims. OP’s is wrong that SaaS is rent sending. Software should not be free (in cost), yet always receive new features and updates. Indeed, the alternative is the ad-tech surveillance state.

That's a strawman. Who exactly demanded "free in cost" plus "always receive new features and updates"? If the software companies (in mobile in particular) had a race to the bottom, it's on them - and on those (hobbyists etc) that undercutted them (though, if hobbyists can undercut your prices, is your product really worth that much, or could it just as well be replaced with a hobbyist-made app?). Users have since for…

Isn't a big reason for this development precisely that many didn't pay top dollar? There used to be a lot of Photoshop, Windows and Office warez floating around.