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Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

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101–110 of 302 posts

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#101

Funny, I was just in a discussion with some folks on this very issue, so enjoy the citation bomb. In short: total compensation isn't outstripping productivity by a substantial degree. First, start with "The relative stickiness of wages and prices" by David E. Spencer. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5814/is_n1_v36/ai_n2... It provides important background to the discussion of whether wages or prices 'stick' m…

The attached graph clearly shows the difference between wages and total compensation.

Yeah, it clearly says 'wages and overall compensation'.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#102
post #36

Technological progress should cause increasing economic inequality, because the bottom end of the scale is firmly anchored at zero (someone taking a vacation), while technology gives the top end ever more powerful levers. So the interesting question is not why economic inequality is increasing, but why for a few decades in the mid twentieth century the trend was reversed. There are probably several factors at work he…

I don't believe the problem is economic inequality. It does not matter if the rich get richer. What matters is that the poor are getting poorer in absolute terms: how much they have to work in order to make rent, buy food, enjoy a vacation. I do not believe that the poor would even notice how many private jets the rich have if they had food on the table. A staggering number do not.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#103
"""

Another thing to consider in terms of whether the rich “deserve” their money, or whether those rewards belong to the society that bestows them is the consolidation of labor. Consider Oprah Winfrey. She s probably only marginally better than the next best candidate for talk show queen. Yet she has amassed 100′s of millions while the next bes candidate for her job has no such job at alll. So we have two people, one tha is maybe 5% better at being a talk show queen, her income is 100 million, and another, 5% worse, and her income is some middle class wage like 50,000. Because of consolidation, the society only needs one Oprah Winfrey. We are paying 100 million to the role, not the woman. That’s the key point. She herself is worth 50,000 plus 5%, and the role of talk show queen, which could have been filled almost as well by many, many other people, is worth all the rest of the money. That role belongs to society, not to Oprahe Winfrey.

You see the same thing with CEOs, bankers, and others where consoliated and mass production allows only a few highly productive roles. The wealth associated with those roles, which is to say the consolidate dower, belongs to society not to the individual lucky enough to get to fill the role. This is why tax rates of 91% on the few that occupy the most consolidate roles was thoroughly appropriate and part of an economic approach that led to America’s greatest period of growth and general prosperity. High taxes on those who wield societies greatest powers on behalf of society are normative. The power, the influence they wield belongs to the society that allows and enables it, not to the individual who fills the role.

"""

[ comment by 'Sharn cedar' on 'DEAR RICH FOLKS: Get Ready For A (Tax) Revolution In Which Your Money Will Be Taken Away', http://www.businessinsider.com/tax-increases-are-coming-2011... - sic, a few typos uncorrected ]

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#104

This analysis also ignores actual purchasing power (non-core inflation). Wages may have stagnated, but purchasing power for non-core goods has soared. Free trade is a powerful cause of both wage stagnation and purchasing power. Sure, eliminate free trade and the working class will see wages go up; but they'll spend those wages on $4000 plasma TVs and $50,000 economy cars.

People making your argument always mention TVs, they never mention rent, land, food, education, childcare, or healthcare. 1. Rent 2. Land 3. Food 4. Education 5. Childcare 6. Healthcare You know, the stuff that actually matters. I'll give up my $400 LCD TV to be able to afford having my spouse stay home. No problem. I'll give up my Hyundai to be able to get a degree on the cheap like they did back in the 60s. I'll gi…

There are lots of third-world countries that will offer you what you want, but you'll give up (exactly) the LCD TV, your car, and the technology.

If you are good in English, you can teach it in some third-world country, while making some money in the side with the Internet. That will afford what you want.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#105
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People making your argument always mention TVs, they never mention rent, land, food, education, childcare, or healthcare. 1. Rent 2. Land 3. Food 4. Education 5. Childcare 6. Healthcare You know, the stuff that actually matters. I'll give up my $400 LCD TV to be able to afford having my spouse stay home. No problem. I'll give up my Hyundai to be able to get a degree on the cheap like they did back in the 60s. I'll gi…

Repost of something I wrote the other day that I think is relevant: My very average house today is a huge luxury compared to the very average house my grandparents bought in the 60s. I have a cable bill, an iPhone bill, an internet bill, a netflix bill, and too many various SaaS subscriptions. My grandparents had none of those. I also have a much higher power bill to pay for all my consumer electronics and air condit…

You wrongly equate material possessions with happiness.

I'd easily go back to a 60s quality lifestyle if my wife didn't have to work and I only had to work 40 hours a week to own a nice house.

In the 60s they had most of the same electric appliances that we have today, save the microwave oven, personal computer, and the cellphone.

I'd bet that eating food that can't be heated in a microwave is probably more healthy for you. Losing the PC would be a real loss, especially the Internet. Losing the cellphone is probably worth it, since we'd have landlines and can still call anyone we need to.

You say we have all of these great things, but most of them are not important to living a quality life. Having time to spend with your family without having to have two wage earners working 60-70 hour weeks is worth more than a flat screen TV and a second car will ever be.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#106
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Repost of something I wrote the other day that I think is relevant: My very average house today is a huge luxury compared to the very average house my grandparents bought in the 60s. I have a cable bill, an iPhone bill, an internet bill, a netflix bill, and too many various SaaS subscriptions. My grandparents had none of those. I also have a much higher power bill to pay for all my consumer electronics and air condit…

You ARE better off. But you are also in the top 20%. The bottom 80% are not as lucky as you. The bottom 80% cannot afford 2 cars, or a house, or cable, or an iPhone, etc. Have some fucking perspective. You are doing well; but look around you. The rest of the country is NOT. A tremendous part of the economy is out of work and cannot even afford to go to the doctor. You're living in a bubble.

I'm firmly in the middle in terms of household income. I was comparing myself to the middle income earner from 2 generations ago.

My point is that the vast majority of Americans have more material wealth than their equivalents did 50 years ago. Everyone has more.,

Also Cable penetration is close to 60% in America, so at least half of the bottom 80% can afford it.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#107

Funny, I was just in a discussion with some folks on this very issue, so enjoy the citation bomb. In short: total compensation isn't outstripping productivity by a substantial degree. First, start with "The relative stickiness of wages and prices" by David E. Spencer. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5814/is_n1_v36/ai_n2... It provides important background to the discussion of whether wages or prices 'stick' m…

We're talking about the first graph, right? If your "statistical artifact" point is to have any merit, then you would have to demonstrate that something changed significantly in how those statistics were obtained after 1980 - because that's when the behavior of those time series changes significantly. If you cannot do that, then the other theory - namely, policy changes - seems the far more plausible explanation.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#108
post #36

Technological progress should cause increasing economic inequality, because the bottom end of the scale is firmly anchored at zero (someone taking a vacation), while technology gives the top end ever more powerful levers. So the interesting question is not why economic inequality is increasing, but why for a few decades in the mid twentieth century the trend was reversed. There are probably several factors at work he…

Technological progress should cause increasing economic inequality Is this view at odds with mainstream economists? I believe the mainstream view is that technological progress is a tide that should naturally lift all boats.

The common view is that 'economic growth' is a tide that lifts all boats. But unfortunately its lifting some boats much faster than others.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#109
post #49
post #36

Technological progress should cause increasing economic inequality, because the bottom end of the scale is firmly anchored at zero (someone taking a vacation), while technology gives the top end ever more powerful levers. So the interesting question is not why economic inequality is increasing, but why for a few decades in the mid twentieth century the trend was reversed. There are probably several factors at work he…

Man, what fantasy world do you live in? Large corporations decrease inequality? [citation needed] Ambitious people started to lose interest? I can't even dignify that with a [citation needed]. Ambitious people have what to do with anything on a national scale? Ambitious people somehow caused, or were party to, the decimation of the middle class, which somehow never once gets mentioned by the actual economists and pol…

I don't buy pg's argument, but I don't find it implausible at all that an economy dominated by a few large employers will tend to have more similar compensations for the same job class than one of many small companies.

If you did a survey of developer compensations in Silicon Valley, do you think (a) developers who work in corporations with over 500 or (b) developers who work in companies with under 50 would have more egalitarian compensations?

My intuition suggests the former, in line with pg. I'd love to see actual evidence of this, though.

My disagreement with PG would come with whether that's the primary driver of inequality. For that, I'd argue it's the increasing power of generic capital over generic labor, instead of competition between specific types or quality of labor.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#110
post #102
post #36

Technological progress should cause increasing economic inequality, because the bottom end of the scale is firmly anchored at zero (someone taking a vacation), while technology gives the top end ever more powerful levers. So the interesting question is not why economic inequality is increasing, but why for a few decades in the mid twentieth century the trend was reversed. There are probably several factors at work he…

I don't believe the problem is economic inequality. It does not matter if the rich get richer. What matters is that the poor are getting poorer in absolute terms: how much they have to work in order to make rent, buy food, enjoy a vacation. I do not believe that the poor would even notice how many private jets the rich have if they had food on the table. A staggering number do not.

The poor are not getting poorer.

In absolute terms real income for the bottom quintile has increased. In addition, technological progress has drastically reduced the cost of many luxury items and put them in reach of the poor. Today the "poor" in America not only have clean drinking water and electricity they also have cell phones, internet access, large screen tvs, dvrs, cars, refrigerators, dish and clothes washers, etc. In short they have the ability to live at a much higher quality of living than in any previous era.

Sure it sucks to be poor, believe me I know, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that the developed world is devolving into some dickensian nightmare when nothing of the sort is happening.

Edit: a helpful graph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_Income_Distr...

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