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Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

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Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#101

Post by horsawlarway »

icu wrote: post #89
horsawlarway wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He became a believer because he's now part of the funnel, and it's in his interest to continue promoting it to new users. Full stop.

OP here. Please refer to the study resources I posted above and please go through them. Yes there is a lot of FUD, FOMO and scammers... but I encourage you to think about cognitive biases and take the time to assess crypto through the lens of a new technology.

> but I encourage you to think about cognitive biases and take the time to assess crypto through the lens of a new technology.

So question - if you're so convinced in the technology, why do you need to advocate for me to understand and change my position?

If this is clearly a home run, what do you care whether I believe? Or whether the other viewers of this comment thread believe?

If this is a ponzi scheme, then your comment makes PERFECT sense. They rely on a fresh supply of new believers.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#102

Post by hiq »

johndevor wrote: post #81
hiq wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be more helpful if you could say what changed your mind. From your comment I can't say whether you changed your mind because you learned something in your studies, or because BTC went from <1$ to 10k$+.

Imagine you're Turkish, Venezuelan, Argentinian, etc. BTC might be your best bet. Now guess which 1st world countries are next. Edit: as I think Naval said, crypto is insurance against politicians.

> Imagine you're Turkish, Venezuelan, Argentinian, etc.

> BTC might be your best bet.

I can sympathize with this idea, although if the US government just allowed Turkish people to open bank accounts in USD and transact with each other, they might do that instead. Many countries already use the USD as their de facto currency.

> Now guess which 1st world countries are next.

Why would they be next? I think it's rather the reverse: once a country is developed enough with a working banking system, it tends to rely on it because it's more efficient and provides more guarantees.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#103

Post by ur-whale »

hiq wrote: post #51
icu wrote: post #31

Indeed my first assessment way back when it was 1) Read the Whitepaper 2) Read the Bitcoin Standard Book (and subsequently the Fiat Standard book) 3) Listened to The Saylor Series on YouTube, and 4) Did the MIT Blockchain and Money course. I then re-considered criticism from: 1) Various Warren Buffet and Charlie Munger interviews 2) The Blackpaper by Nassim Taleb, and 3) Various interviews with Peter Schiff. My concl…

It would be more helpful if you could say what changed your mind. From your comment I can't say whether you changed your mind because you learned something in your studies, or because BTC went from <1$ to 10k$+.

For what it's worth, for me the truly enlightening moment was when VISA and other "payment" networks shut down wikileaks access to funding an they switched to Bitcoin and were able to continue the mission.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#104

Post by hiq »

icu wrote: post #88
okareaman wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you become a believer without evidence (faith) or do you wish to share what changed your mind? Like physicist Richard Feynman said, if you can't explain it simply, then you don't understand it.

I'll try to be brief because there are lots of reasons why I changed my mind: 1) I actually think I understand it now (I could still be wrong) because I studied it. 2) I had a very annoying use case sending money to a company in China and after having a terrible time with AliPay and getting nowhere, when I tried using crypto (not BTC) it was a breeze. 3) The way our financial system is setup has bothered me since 200…

2. wise.com (not familiar with alipay) says I can send USD5000 to China and have it arrive by tomorrow. I guess you were trying to send a bigger amount? Did your transfer just bypass regulations, either in the country you were sending it from or in China? See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29646492

Not saying it's something nobody wants to do, but if it does end up being a significant use-case, there's no reason wise.com and others can't catch up, apart from regulatory reasons.

3. why do you think bitcoin helps against inflation, especially given its volatility? See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29521689

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#105

Post by ur-whale »

jacknews wrote: post #61
jonathan-adly wrote: post #30

I am glad the ft audience think BTC is a bad idea. They are mostly well-off elite in developed countries. Bitcoin is meant to erode their power.

LOL, you mean shift power to a different (for now) elite. Bitcoin ownership is even more concentrated than the real financial system.

> Bitcoin ownership is even more concentrated than the real financial system.

The concentration of Bitcoin ownership and the service that Bitcoin provides to humanity (please do everyone a favor and don't re-post one of the 100 lame arguments present in the thread as to why there isn't any) are completely orthogonal, especially given the fact that a Bitcoin can be divided into 10^8 pieces.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#107

Post by jonathan-adly »

hiq wrote: post #100
jonathan-adly wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not the OP, but like him, I though Bitcoin was a scam until early this year. What changed my mind when a centralized entity like Robinhood took away the buy button of an equity in most capital-friendly country on Earth. I wasn't even involved, so I wasn't mad. But rationally, if someone can wake up one day and decide you can't buy an equity with little consequences, then it is entirely possible for a bank to tak…

I think this comment is on point and related to your points: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29646492 I'm not familiar with Robinhood, but I think it's mostly about buying stocks. Blockchains won't help you do this, at least not in a decentralized manner. You'll be stuck buying tokens with no real connection to e.g. the US economy, until it's been approved legally. > Follow the logic of what's possible with the…

> I'm not familiar with Robinhood, but I think it's mostly about buying stocks.

Nope. You missed the point. It's about a company (or centralized entity) being in control of your money.

> Blockchains won't help you do this, at least not in a decentralized manner. You'll be stuck buying tokens

Blockchains and tokens are non-sense words. Bitcoin is a protocol and a network, the first blockchain. It is an open-ledger that facilitates value exchange between two willing participants (you don't have to take part if you don't want).

> it's been approved legally

Bitcoin is approved legally in the US, and has the world's smartest and most experienced money managers and hedge funds invested in it. Just a few names: 1. Stanley Druckenmiller 2. Ray Dalio 3. Geroge Soros 4. Paul Tudor Jones 5. Steve Cohen 6. Louis Bacon

Would recommend reading this: https://saifedean.com/thebitcoinstandard/

Written by a PhD from Columbia University with an MSc from the London School of Economics, and a Bachelor of Engineering.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#108

Post by icu »

hiq wrote: post #99
icu wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I first "looked" at BTC @ I then looked again at ~$100 and felt that it was too involved with crime for me to be associated in any way with it (I work in Regulated Financial markets and I didn't want to take any career chance I could get accused of money laundering). At ~$1,000 I actually played with some code in Python to mine BTC but figured I'd need an ASIC rig and didn't bother. 7 December 2020 one of the smartes…

Sorry, I must be tired. Did I misunderstand your answer, or are you saying that you did change your mind about BTC just because it increased in value? If that's not the case, why did you change your mind about it? Edit: sorry I just saw another comment of yours down below, will read that.

The trigger was a confluence of events:

A) Personal, life changing, events forced a total re-examination of my psychology and beliefs

B) One of the smartest people I know making a book recommendation.

At this time, and moving forward, I began to really challenge myself as to my virtues and examine my emotions and thoughts for vices (anti-virtues if you will).

My initial reaction to the book recommendation was dubious, especially due to the parabolic price rises and volatility.

It was at this time I decided I need to work on being humble and curious, so I embarked upon the real start of my crypto "journey".

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#109

Post by LatteLazy »

luma wrote: post #72
DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* Who ever claimed bitcoin would fix the problems with a currency? The point is that it gives people an alternative to those broken currencies. * Yes, but same goes for many other services. Transferring value is always a costly process unless you're using cash. * Pretty much all of it. Are we even talking about the same thing when we say "Bitcoin"? Because it sure seems like you're thinking of something completely di…

* The person I was responding to claim it could be an alternative. OK, Bitcoin has been around a while and several countries have had currency problems. Notably, Bitcoin didn't save the day. Why? It has literally never happened, but people keep claiming it will. * Claim was made that Bitcoin made this "cheaper and simpler". That isn't true. * Which part of the public ledger exactly is anonymous? You say "pretty much…

To be clear, I didn't say it would solve the country/currency's problems. I said it would let individuals work around them.

Also, the only details on the public ledgers (for bitcoin) are the balance, wallet IDs and transactions. If I buy or sell bitcoin you can't tell it was "me" you can only tell that wallet #12345 transferred to wallet #67890. You still have to be careful your Id isn't linked to your wallet in some other way. But until that happens you're as anonymous as it's possible to be really.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#110

Post by tonfreed »

LatteLazy wrote: post #24
yosito wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In countries with unstable currencies they are useful stores of value (Venezuela, Turkey and Zimbabwe right now) Also, Cuba and Argentina. While Bitcoin may be more accessible to people in these countries, they could also store value in USD, or other stable assets. > By making online retail anonymous I really don't understand the persistent myth that blockchains are anonymous.

Blockchain is anonymous if you use it correctly I believe (don't reuse wallets, launder you coins etc) but you're right that the vast majority of people don't do that as far as I'm aware. Full disclosure: I've never actually done it either and I'm no expert...

The big ones like Bitcoin are pseudonymous. If you know someone's wallet you can see their entire history on the ledger.

Private coins like Monero are different, and transactions can only be ascertained if you're one of the parties involved.

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