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The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

arstechnica.com

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Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#101

Post by sudosysgen »

_qfhw wrote: post #91
motohagiography wrote: post #16

I commented previously that the Uganda case was the first truly legitimate application of NSO's tech and the first one that wasn't actually a scandal, as it was by a state without a mature domestic intelligence capability going to market to buy tools of one, to spy on actual spies in its borders. It seems this particular NSO case is being used as bargaining leverage to discredit Israel's position in the Iran nuclear…

I think the argument for legitimate application in Uganda is partly negated by allegations that political opposition was also being targeted [1]. [1] https://twitter.com/norbertmao/status/1463364241688305664

That's not why anything was done over it. If they had kept it to political opposition they'd still be using it today. It's specifically using it to root out spies that the US dislikes.

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#102

Post by ggm »

If you replace your handset, keep your SIM, how does NSO recapture you? I don't understand how rich powerful technocrats get stung so often: surely the path out is to swap device and move on?

I should be clear I do believe they are being recaptured. I just don't understand how. In the pre digital world, most phone steals were inside jobs: somebody leaked info leading to a voicemail hack or a stingray type cell listen in. Post digital, i suspect a lot of things are still inside jobs, but on phone compromise feels like a problem moving platform solves.

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#103

Post by FpUser »

Sporktacular wrote: post #98

“We always knew this thing had an expiration date,” (Hulio) told the friend" This was clearly the plan all along. Such companies live and die by their low profiles. Was probably not the founders' first such company nor will it be their last. Next step will be to close up, take the contacts, clients, capital, the lessons learned and the cream of the staff to whatever mercenary, unethical piece of crap they make next.…

>"It'll mean going after the owners, suppliers and employees/contractors with naming/shaming, coordinated sanctions, criminal charges, designated persons lists etc. until their reputations are trash."

What a brave approach. Especially in regards to employees. This would close down every other major US company.

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#104

Post by NumberCruncher »

jprd wrote: post #49
Terry_Roll wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think NSO are scapegoats, because how hard is it for a country to setup up a honeypot device to analyse NSO'a attack vectors and then copy it for their own use whilst being able to blame it on NSO? I say this because I've had stuff done to my phones in the past, one strange incident with a "hacked" phone was selecting an AirBnB, which I believe directed me to a few of their "safe" houses. Other examples, include ba…

It is astounding to me that a state as paranoid as Israel has leaned so hard into the far-right that they would actively sell some of that highly sensitive tech to other states that not that long ago had a death wish for Israel as a main position of said state. A state born of hard-edged refugees escaping a world that had recently written them off to die, carried through several existential wars, and now they are EMP…

> It is astounding to me that a state as paranoid as Israel [...] would actively sell some of that highly sensitive tech to other states that not that long ago had a death wish for Israel

You should google up the story of the Swiss company Crypto AG Tl;dr; bought by the CIA and the BND (German counterpart) in 1970 and sold security software to governments all around the world. With built in backdoors for the CIA and BND. It was the main source of foreign intel for decades for the CIA.

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#105

Post by motohagiography »

_qfhw wrote: post #91
motohagiography wrote: post #16

I commented previously that the Uganda case was the first truly legitimate application of NSO's tech and the first one that wasn't actually a scandal, as it was by a state without a mature domestic intelligence capability going to market to buy tools of one, to spy on actual spies in its borders. It seems this particular NSO case is being used as bargaining leverage to discredit Israel's position in the Iran nuclear…

I think the argument for legitimate application in Uganda is partly negated by allegations that political opposition was also being targeted [1]. [1] https://twitter.com/norbertmao/status/1463364241688305664

But that would be a scope shift, so if we're going there, now do Stingrays, PRISM, paralell construction, and FISA - but I won't say these are quality arguments. Outside this admitted whataboutism on my part, the very narrow defense I'm indicating for NSO in this specific case is it was within the sovereign right of this customer to use it, and it's only going to happen more often as this market is infinite.

I still think the Americans are just mad they got owned by Uganda. I'd bet this isn't the first time they have scored points against the low expectations of their "advisors," either so: well played. Point Uganda. I think this is a really funny precedent, and I can't believe I'm defending either of them, but the arguments back just aren't powerful when compared to demand for the tools of sovereignty, and we should give the conseqeunces of that due consideration.

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#106

Post by programmarchy »

FpUser wrote: post #103
Sporktacular wrote: post #98

“We always knew this thing had an expiration date,” (Hulio) told the friend" This was clearly the plan all along. Such companies live and die by their low profiles. Was probably not the founders' first such company nor will it be their last. Next step will be to close up, take the contacts, clients, capital, the lessons learned and the cream of the staff to whatever mercenary, unethical piece of crap they make next.…

>"It'll mean going after the owners, suppliers and employees/contractors with naming/shaming, coordinated sanctions, criminal charges, designated persons lists etc. until their reputations are trash." What a brave approach. Especially in regards to employees. This would close down every other major US company.

They knew what they were doing. And I don’t see why major US companies deserve much sympathy if they’re as bad as you say.

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#107

Post by hn_throwaway_69 »

bestouff wrote: post #24

So hacking phones for the US governement is ok, but hacking phones for Uganda is not ?

You can't really equate the rules that should apply to full democracies with those that should apply to partial democracies or totalitarian regimes.

There's no evidence the US has used NSO like tools to spy on the opposition (post Watergate, anyway).

Partial democracies or totalitarian regimes shouldn't be given these tools under any circumstances since they can't be trusted to only use them to investigate legitimate crimes. They will present some bona fide use scenario, then use the tools for other undisclosed purposes.

If NSO Group had an ounce of ethics, it wouldn't provide the software, but would request a dossier/brief which outlines, with evidence, the basis on which intrusion into the target device is sought. It would then have an agent carry out exploitation. Political "crimes" should be refused service.

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#108

Post by kgonza »

motohagiography wrote: post #16

I commented previously that the Uganda case was the first truly legitimate application of NSO's tech and the first one that wasn't actually a scandal, as it was by a state without a mature domestic intelligence capability going to market to buy tools of one, to spy on actual spies in its borders. It seems this particular NSO case is being used as bargaining leverage to discredit Israel's position in the Iran nuclear…

Uganda has a very capable domestic intelligence network and I would be surprised if all they were doing to these "diplomats" (spies for the US) is hacking into their phones. This has made the news, but it is the one of the least egregious things Museveni and his son - esp the son - have done in the past two or so years as they faced the strongest challenge to his rule ever yet. I am very sure that locals, particularly the opposition, had it much worse than American spies, although that most likely won't make the news.

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#109

Post by kgonza »

adventured wrote: post #65
motohagiography wrote: post #16

I commented previously that the Uganda case was the first truly legitimate application of NSO's tech and the first one that wasn't actually a scandal, as it was by a state without a mature domestic intelligence capability going to market to buy tools of one, to spy on actual spies in its borders. It seems this particular NSO case is being used as bargaining leverage to discredit Israel's position in the Iran nuclear…

> as it was by a state without a mature domestic intelligence capability going to market to buy tools of one, to spy on actual spies in its borders How do you intend to support your claim that the 11 US diplomats and employees from the US embassy are spies (and thus are supposedly legitimate targets in your view)? Nowhere does it say US spies were the targets. And no other story on this subject has presented evidence…

So you've never read the WikiLeaks?

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#110

Post by kgonza »

ashtonkem wrote: post #89
adventured wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as it was by a state without a mature domestic intelligence capability going to market to buy tools of one, to spy on actual spies in its borders How do you intend to support your claim that the 11 US diplomats and employees from the US embassy are spies (and thus are supposedly legitimate targets in your view)? Nowhere does it say US spies were the targets. And no other story on this subject has presented evidence…

I wouldn’t hazard a guess about the exact number, but spies being given diplomatic cover (and diplomats spying) has been the norm for centuries. A huge chunk of Cold War spy craft was about diplomatic personnel trying to evade their followers in order to meet with their contacts without exposing them.

A huge chunk of the American intelligence leaked by WikiLeaks was collected by "diplomats".
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