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“Open source” is not broken

nadh.in

101–110 of 259 posts

Re: “Open source” is not broken

#101
post #55
post #7

Re the author of "open source is broken": The irony of bashing open source on a websiate using systems/code/infra containing thousands of open source lines of code which I am sure he hasn't paid for... has probably escaped his attention. Honestly, I am not sure why there is an argument anymore. Let people write or use free or proprietary software as they see fit. You all know the pros, you all know the cons, make a d…

As the author of that article, I am starting to prefer they/them pronouns. It would be nice if you could update your comment to refer to me correctly, however this is not a demand. There is a lot more happening behind the scenes than you know of, I make a tiny fraction of my donations public knowledge.

That's why I default to they/them unless I have some indication otherwise. One time a dude went off on me for it, and I broke his brain by suggesting pronouns in his bio would have saved him a public freakout. I always found the prescription to default to masculine terms as a default gender neutral awfully suspicious even before I knew I was nonbinary.

Re: “Open source” is not broken

#102
post #91
post #72

>If FOSS was broken, the internet as we know it today wouldn’t exist; the countless marvels of technology that we take for granted and techno-economies that thrive on them wouldn’t exist; I guess I just vehemently disagree. Nearly all of the early open-source software that made the internet possible was produced in universities. The only reason it was sustainable was because it was professors being paid by the univer…

This. OSS is broken, but I'd even go so far and say that most of software is, because money is often an after thought.

And by broken, you mean what?

Re: “Open source” is not broken

#103
post #72

>If FOSS was broken, the internet as we know it today wouldn’t exist; the countless marvels of technology that we take for granted and techno-economies that thrive on them wouldn’t exist; I guess I just vehemently disagree. Nearly all of the early open-source software that made the internet possible was produced in universities. The only reason it was sustainable was because it was professors being paid by the univer…

> SOMEONE has to pay the bills, and as we've seen time and again, hoping to feed your family on donations is a fool's errand.

Not that I entirely reject the ghist of your claim, but what about:

* Older, retired people?

* Spouse working for-pay supports spouse working on FOSS?

* Part-time for-pay work, rest of time FOSS (like myself...)?

In those situations you pay the bills without donations.

Re: “Open source” is not broken

#104
post #94
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the mirror may be less convenient. This works for OsmAnd+ for example: it's FOSS, free (as in beer) on FDroid, but costs 25$ on Google Play.

Yeah, the Blink ssh/mosh client for iOS is GPL3 but costs $19.99 in the App Store. I'm about to pay someone with a developer account a few hundred bucks just to publish a free renamed build of it to the App Store, because that's ridiculous. https://blink.sh/ https://github.com/blinksh/blink https://apps.apple.com/app/id1156707581

I think you're missing the point here.

People's time is valuable, especially expert developers.

The 'Code' only part of the issue with respect to input cost. Someone has to maintain that dev. account, maintain their skills, stay on top of distribution policies, probably take on some legal risk, keep the build kind of up to day.

That takes skill. We mostly want it that way so that distribution is clean and clear and reasonable for those involved.

If it's a niche product, then $20 is not going to add up to a lot of money.

If it's a professional product, then $20 is basically $0 for all intents and purposes, it's the cost of a stapler on which case cost should not be a problem.

The AppStore is generally an open market, if $20 price is too high and someone is raking in big profits, someone can publish the same thing.

In the end, what we want to achieve is a price point that matches the material value creation involved in the 'maintenance of the build and distribution aspects'.

That's actually efficient, and what we want.

There's no such thing as 'free' - it's all time and labour and there are number of issues involved.

FOSS should be considered 'volunteer labour' which makes the underlying costs more apparent, the code and licensing is a distraction from that.

Re: “Open source” is not broken

#105
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> …the only way I can foresee open source working in the way the purists want… Well the point of open source is it works however the person opening the work wants. There’s a license compatible with every philosophy out there. Take your pick. Open source isn’t broken because it can’t really break at all. For something to break it would have to have a concrete form to begin with.

This is great if you have the financial resources to find and legally pursue licence violators.

Especially internationally

Re: “Open source” is not broken

#106
post #32

Open source is most certainly broken, and not just due to the various financial, freedom and security issues these two articles focus on. My biggest peeve: documentation is often minimal (e.g. API docs only) or filled with useless toy examples that are effectively just rephrasing of API docs. The entire underpinning of free and open source software is silly: software in this context isn't an academic pursuit producin…

You're describing two legitimate worlds, the Ivory Tower and the Marketplace, let's call them for short, but I don't think the error is conflating them. I think the error(s) arise in the intersection between the two realms. The Internet was a-commercial or even anti-commercial at first (having gestated in the Ivory Tower) and retrofitting it for commerce and industry has been, um, a wild ride. Kind of a gold rush.

Copying and running code is (effectively) free, developing, maintaining, and auditing code is still expensive. Folks who want to use software without paying the costs get what they pay for, eh?

I feel that if there's anything the community is doing wrong, it's in the emphasis on new and shiny rather than mature and stable. I feel we should be entering a "contractile" stage of (global IT) development, with consolidation and convergence of software and hardware replacing the wild burgeoning and rampant growth of complexity.

"Like, complexity is an existential threat, man..."

Re: “Open source” is not broken

#107
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the Blink ssh/mosh client for iOS is GPL3 but costs $19.99 in the App Store. I'm about to pay someone with a developer account a few hundred bucks just to publish a free renamed build of it to the App Store, because that's ridiculous. https://blink.sh/ https://github.com/blinksh/blink https://apps.apple.com/app/id1156707581

I think you're missing the point here. People's time is valuable, especially expert developers. The 'Code' only part of the issue with respect to input cost. Someone has to maintain that dev. account, maintain their skills, stay on top of distribution policies, probably take on some legal risk, keep the build kind of up to day. That takes skill. We mostly want it that way so that distribution is clean and clear and r…

That $20 doesn't go to the dev. It goes to Apple, and, in the USA, requires doxxing yourself to the vendor to get a copy of free-as-in-freedom software.

That's unacceptable and repugnant, and it doesn't have any bearing on the volunteer labor.

There is such a thing that's free: free software. It was produced with volunteer labor (but doesn't have to be - look at golang!), but the end result/product is free-as-in-freedom and free-as-in-beer.

> what we want to achieve is a price point that matches the material value creation involved in the 'maintenance of the build and distribution aspects'.

No, what I want to achieve with this free software is that anyone be able to access it without barriers whatsoever, including payment.

Re: “Open source” is not broken

#108

It feels like we moved from a world where open source software was develop by a community, to one where most of us are just consumers of the code. I don't know if where actually more contributors 20 years ago, relatively speaking, but much of the code was also less complex. Open source is still remarkably successful and the only reason why the whole Log4J RCE is such a big deal, is because the library is hugely succe…

> It feels like we moved from a world where open source software was develop by a community, to one where most of us are just consumers of the code.

Are you sure that's even a contradiction? I mean, if you start with a developer community, and add a lot of people who simply had not been exposed to / using the software, you get to the situation of "most of us being just consumers of the code".

Now, you could argue that communities have been fraying/weakening over the past few decades, but that would be almost an orthogonal argument.

> That mean that all the companies who have been relying on open source need to allocate time to community work.

We need to funnel some social resources into building and maintaining such communities. If companies were to do that, then great, or rather, not great but sort-of-ok. The thing is, they aren't doing it, as they are fundamentally motivated not to: It hurts their profitability (except perhaps for vague extra-long-term concerns). So, it's not useful to say that "companies should do it".

Re: “Open source” is not broken

#109
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> …the only way I can foresee open source working in the way the purists want… Well the point of open source is it works however the person opening the work wants. There’s a license compatible with every philosophy out there. Take your pick. Open source isn’t broken because it can’t really break at all. For something to break it would have to have a concrete form to begin with.

This is great if you have the financial resources to find and legally pursue licence violators.

Even if the licenses are abused, there will still be free and open source software. It's a beautiful idea that won't die as long as there are tinkerers in the world.

Re: “Open source” is not broken

#110
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the author of that article, I am starting to prefer they/them pronouns. It would be nice if you could update your comment to refer to me correctly, however this is not a demand. There is a lot more happening behind the scenes than you know of, I make a tiny fraction of my donations public knowledge.

Edit: another person pointed out that the actual comment sounds like an ad hominem, which i do not condone. However, some of the phrasing made me think, hence the question (more clarification below). > The irony of bashing open source on a website using systems/code/infra containing thousands of open source lines of code which I am sure they haven't paid for... has probably escaped their attention. Hey, what are your…

> Hey, what are your thoughts on the OP's argument, though?

An ad-hom insult doesn't make an argument. OP isn't bashing open source, OP is bashing for-profit companies using it without contributing as an overall system, and OP's website isn't a for-profit company, so even the "OP is a dumb hypocrite" isn't only an insult, it's also wrong.

> "There is no obligation or anything to encourage anyone to donate to the authors, most people don't care."

My long term simple answer to American's "tipping problem"[1] is that if you want money, charge money. This emotional manipulation guilt tripping "you don't have to pay, it's free" "my children, think of my dying starving family, I need money" "oh but it's free honestly I do it to contribute to others" "but listen to the crying of my wife as she scrapes together the last of our posessions to take to the pawn shop" "no really, I encourage everyone to make and use free software (but you should FEEL BAD if you do what I encourage)" "but it's free, check out that license" "I'm only saying I was hoping you would behave like a decent person and not take advantage of me while I lie about my motives to your face and emotionally manipulate you" "btw don't even think of holding me responsible for any problems in the code, I disclaim all responsibility to the maximum amount permitted by law and offer no support for any problems" is just not a good or honest way to go about things.

You want money, charge money. Code as an employee, be a consultant, be indipendent and sell your thing. You need money, charge money, there's multiple ways to do it, people have been doing it for years. Why aren't you able to charge money? At least partly because of all the people giving away the equivalent for free. Why would someone pay for your library when they could get a free one? If guilt tripping is the only answer, you need a better answer.

If I plant a tree for everyone to have a bit more oxygen in the atmosphee, will you pay me for the oxygen you're using from my efforts? Of course not.

[1] that's not to say I don't tip, it's to say I hate the design of the system and think it leaves the majority worse off and far more stressed, so the minority of attractive people in rich areas come out far ahead.

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