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The Tinkerbell Griftopia

stephendiehl.com

101–110 of 251 posts

Re: The Tinkerbell Griftopia

#101

Devil's Advocate: Do cryptocurrencies have _any_ legitimate use case? I can see that some newer and non-mineable coins, Solana, Avalanche, Hedera, XRP, XLM, etc don't have mining issues that the big coins (BTC, ETH, Chia, etc) have. Is what I am seeing from critics that there has been absolutely no progress whatsoever in this space?

Of course they do. The biggest one to me is micro transactions to me. Of course being required to pay capital gains on every transaction kills that. It opens up ways to run ad free online services without thinking of dumb schemes like charging exhorbitant amounts of money for digital “stickers” and other crap. Like tipping with a small percentage going to the platform, charging tiny amount per min/hour of usage, tiny…

But you can't do micro transactions on the blockchain - or rather, everyone can't do microtransactions on the blockchain because it's fundamentally anti-scalable and has to transmit every transaction to every full node.

(LN does not solve this unless you re-centralise on a common broker with whom you have a channel!)

This doesn't solve any of the other problems such as microfraud or friction either.

Re: The Tinkerbell Griftopia

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Blockchain tech, at least in its PoW incarnation, seems like a negation of Moore's law. The same operations get slower and less efficient over time.

Every incarnation I've heard of is comparably slow. People claim to have ways to improve efficiency but I haven't heard of anything within three orders of magnitude of performance of the Windows 95 machine rusting in my garage.

The canonical way to get around the inevitable inefficiency of decentralization at scale is to quietly re-add centralization (ReFi?) and bury it under technical neologisms and benchmarks.

"Look how fast and innovative $cryptocurrency is! I totally didn't just reinvent a centralized payment settlement system."

Re: The Tinkerbell Griftopia

#103

Soon we get to the point when the Tinkerbell believers become violent against the unfaithful because their heresy is what spoiling the magic. In practise this will mean legal regulation and support, probably by some further perversion of IP laws. Really dont see any end game that aint ugly.

I've never seen that, ever. There are, however, daily calls to unperson people in the crypto space -- just like what S. Diehl is doing here by claiming it is essentially a 'collective delusion worthy of punishment'.

Re: The Tinkerbell Griftopia

#104
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retroactive sales have long been the way most art (and most stuff in general) is funded. Art is made and then sold, then the artist can keep making things. Someone makes them then sells them then they can keep making more. There is also the smaller market of commissioned work, which is popular in illustration and graphic design, but not so much in fine arts as it strips agency from the artist (you are asking them to…

Not really answering the question there, which was specifically in reference to "People need to be paid to do the work". Clearly, they don't. They do the work first. Maybe if they were not paid they'd not do -further- work (though "starving artist" being a thing tends to imply people create because of a desire to create, not because of how lucrative it is), but with NFTs...no one is actually paying them to do the wor…

> "People need to be paid to do the work". Clearly, they don't.

im really not sure what you are arguing for here? It seems you just really dont want a person to give someone else money and that have exchange/relationship be tokenized?

because regardless of how you feel about it, clearly lots of other people do want this. many artists and musicians do want this, particularly with royalties on resales.

I make something, I put up a signed version for auction, it gets sold. That person has the version i signed, they like having that, maybe in the future they sell it again and i also get royalties from the future sales. This is a positive improvement for me selling my artwork/music, and i much prefer it to begging on patreon. Even just making/advertising a patreon account is seen negatively from my experience, people would much rather pay me for something than send me $5 a month. I guess the follow up is why crypto not paypal, and beyond the obvious dependancy/fees/region locks, well its just more fun :)

We know that people feel different when they buy things. We know that ownership brings with it a sense of care. We know the exchange of one token for another (be it crypto of pieces of paper or stones) builds relationships, builds community. And a record of those exchanges builds legitimacy. That legitimacy extends to the system, as more people use it the more accepted it becomes.

>that can be changed out at any time by the creator

that would be one quick way to destroy your legitimacy, future sales, and upset your audience, sure. not sure why you'd do that?

Re: The Tinkerbell Griftopia

#105
post #96

From the article: "But truly that is the message of the Andersen folktale, that power begets the capacity to inspire delusion in the masses." Does the "Andersen folktale" refer to Tinkerbell? Has nothing to do with the merit of the article or his argument, but Tinkerbell was a character invented by J.M. Barrie for Peter Pan and not a folktale at all.

I believe the author was referring to The Emperor's New Clothes, which he also mentioned in the article

Thanks. My reading comprehension has not powered up yet this morning.

Re: The Tinkerbell Griftopia

#106
> A lot of us older grizzled engineers came from an open source culture that, at least aspirationally, built software around ideas of abundance, post-scarcity, universal access, and equality. We may not have always succeeded in achieving such goals, but these ideas informed much of what we now take for granted as the open source substrate that powers well … everything.

Lol. And how is that working out for you with the modern internet? I came from this period as well, and I believe in these ideals. But scarcity is a fact of the world, and it is going to exist on the internet whether we like it or not. The only choice we have is whether that scarcity exists in centralized servers and closed protocols, or whether it exists on top of open, decentralized ones. The "post scarcity internet" is a ship that sailed two decades ago, or more.

> Much ink has been spilled describing the technical internals of NFTs, and about as equal as much ink has been spent on obscurantism and decentralized woo woo to explain why the internals don’t matter. There is very little common ground on such debates because to the faithful the value of NFTs is a presuppositional truth instilled in them in the revelation of them making money off them. And simultaneously the non-believers can “right-click” or Torrent any NFT as a statement of the rejection of the ontological status of playing word games with the term “own”.

I agree with all the author's criticisms of NFTs. However, they all apply equally well to every piece of art ever created. A context in which I also agree with them. NFTs are no more or less stupid than the art market generally. I'm not particularly into art myself, but the art market has a very long history of existing and operating relatively smoothly. Any decent modern day painter could make you a passable copy of Starry Night, but that doesn't make the original any less valuable.

> There’s nothing new under the sun and the phenomenon of self-perpetuating faith-based economic schemes are well known to exist, there’s even a term: the Tinkerbell Effect. The phenomenon where things that are thought to exist only because people believe in them. The crypto acolytes really believe they can will into existence a whole new epistemé of value detached from the classical economics of the previous order. And that’s an idea that’s not without some historical precedence. The first book about virality of mania was written by the Scottish journalist Charles Mackay back in 1841 (See Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds), and to this day it remains the definitive reference on crypto mania because human nature remains largely invariant across the ages.

This was a totally valid criticism in 2013. Just as this criticism was valid of the internet in 2001. It is not valid today. Even if you believe crypto will never offer any transactional utility to anyone, assets like gold derive 99% of their value from their utility as hedges. Ultimately, that is not an economic truth, it is a social truth. People don't like that - they desperately want their assets to have some mathematical, provable value to them. But they don't. Some assets really are equal to their discounted future cash flows. Other assets, like gold and bitcoin, derive their value from inter-subjective social consensus. That does not make them illegitimate, any more than the meaning of words or handshake greetings are illegitimate.

> But at the same time, it must be understood that many of us in other intellectual traditions don’t look at the Tinkerbell Griftopia and see a promised land where we sit on a golden throne of monkey JPEGs. We see crypto as a mob of misguided fools repeating the ecological disaster of Easter Island on a global scale for the sole purpose of selling man-child themed Neopets. And some of us in the old guard think that’s not a future we want to see realized

It's amusing to me that people lean so hard into the environmental argument. This argument will likely continue to be valid for Bitcoin, but it won't be for Ethereum, and most of the stuff this guy is criticizing lives on top of Ethereum. Hitching your wagon to a contingent, ephemeral feature of the technology who's obsolescence is already planned seems like a major tactical error to me. But go ahead.

Re: The Tinkerbell Griftopia

#107

Very weird to frame crypto as contrasting with "an open source culture that, at least aspirationally, built software around ideas of abundance, post-scarcity, universal access, and equality". Were the "older grizzled engineers" all literal communists or what?

Ah, Americans thinking that anything other than a rentier hellscape is literally communism. The early web and a lot of the US hacker culture was "anarcho-libertarian"; ownership matters a lot less when the answer to "who owns the means of production" is "everyone with a computer".

Re: The Tinkerbell Griftopia

#108

Anyway here you go https://thenftbay.org/description.html https://thenftbay.org/ You can have all the NFTs in existence without having to wear out your right click button. We can all be "rich"

https://www.moma.org/collection/works/79802

MOMA is going to be so mad when they find out Starry Night is worthless now.

Re: The Tinkerbell Griftopia

#109
post #97

I work in the crypto industry right now - my job is to keep bad guys from stealing XXX millions of dollars. I've also worked on a team that has done the tech side of several record breaking NFT's sales. And I've sold my own NFTS for fun, and strangers have bought them (wat!). I'm not a "believer". Crypto is indeed full of idiots - and scammers - and crazy people who will say anything to see the token they hold go up…

Well, you had me until you brought up Fidenza. It’s something somebody with less than a CompSci or SWE bachelors could do. It looks like something a nerd who can program that just took an entry level mechanical engineering fluid dynamics course & thought it was cool made. In other words, practically worthless, and hardly art. You would put them on your wall? Poor wall.

Modern art = I could do that + yeah but you didnt

Re: The Tinkerbell Griftopia

#110
post #12

This dude really pumps out the rambly anti-crypto takes. Too bad HN upvotes are not a cryptocurrency or he'd be rich

His twitter feed instantly reveals how personal and petty his crusade has become: https://twitter.com/smdiehl

What it shows us is that the veneer of intellectual honesty displayed in the article is just a facade. The real goal is to gaslight and unperson people he dislikes. Sad!

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