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Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

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Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#101

Post by lotsofpulp »

snek_case wrote: post #68
GhettoComputers wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Silly idea in tech, the hardware will be long outdated before someone look for parts which are going to be overpriced, and the company might be gone forever. You can buy common business laptops such as thinkpad and swap the parts easily and cheaply. People aren’t swapping their 2011 i3 for a 2011 i7 if they care about performance; they’re getting an i5 from 2018. None of these swappable parts are unique aside from th…

I'm using a MacBook Air 2015 and it's basically still a fast, perfectly usable machine. Quad core i7, 8GB RAM, SSD. However, I wish I could replace the battery, I wish the SSD was more easily upgradeable, and it would be nice to double the RAM.

It is very easy to replace a 2015 MacBook Air battery:

https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Air+13-Inch+Early+2015+...

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#102

Post by RistrettoMike »

snek_case wrote: post #68
GhettoComputers wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Silly idea in tech, the hardware will be long outdated before someone look for parts which are going to be overpriced, and the company might be gone forever. You can buy common business laptops such as thinkpad and swap the parts easily and cheaply. People aren’t swapping their 2011 i3 for a 2011 i7 if they care about performance; they’re getting an i5 from 2018. None of these swappable parts are unique aside from th…

I'm using a MacBook Air 2015 and it's basically still a fast, perfectly usable machine. Quad core i7, 8GB RAM, SSD. However, I wish I could replace the battery, I wish the SSD was more easily upgradeable, and it would be nice to double the RAM.

Not to be overly pedantic, but Apple didn't release any quad-core MacBook Airs in 2015.(see https://support.apple.com/kb/sp714?locale=en_US) Intel didn't even have quad-core ULV CPUs available until late 2017-2018.

I only comment because the jump between dual & quad core is a pretty big one, as is the presumed jump to newer chips with 6, 8, and 16 core processors in modern machines.

Dual core has remained surprisingly usable for light tasking though. Whether it is a well-loved MacBook or a battle-scarred ThinkPad from that era, Intel's dual core CPUs have held up well (even if it means they didn't feel the need to push their CPU design as much in the subsequent years.)

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#103

Post by Robotbeat »

BoorishBears wrote: post #62
cyberbanjo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the used 2011 i3, that wouldn't become garbage if it were repairable would get sold to someone less performance / price consciousness? Now it gets trashed.

The other comment points it out correctly, no one wants it price conscious or not. Between the fact that many of them work without issue for years, and the fact that an new equivalent to your 2011 i3 becomes exponentially cheaper over time, repairing it will never be worth it. A Raspberry PI 4 is a functional computer but costs less than just the CPU of that i3 based machine while trouncing it in performance and powe…

At some point, the CPU is almost irrelevant. A huge issue is software locked to a certain motherboard. And the fact that your Raspberry Pi isn’t going to be running x86 software flawlessly and doesn’t come with nearly the same peripherals as a typical laptop (without a lot more cost… but even then, a 1:1 replacement isn’t possible).

The assumption that tech gets exponentially cheaper over time, ie Moore’s Law, only applies to a portion of the hardware, one the CPU, GPU, RAM, and storage. It doesn’t apply to the glue that holds it all together, the integrated display, keyboard, mouse, speakers, etc. In fact, a lot of webcams are actually worse than they were 10 years ago. AND Moore’s Law has significantly slowed. Apple Silicon is a big improvement, but this is a step change, and it’s not likely to be a continuation of the 18 Month Moore’s Law doubling time of years past.

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#104

Post by fishtacos »

mlindner wrote: post #94

This title is misleading. Apple Silicon Macs can boot from external hard drives just fine. The topic is only about if the drive is failed.

Title:

"Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed"

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#105

Post by GhettoComputers »

pantalaimon wrote: post #51
GhettoComputers wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Silly idea in tech, the hardware will be long outdated before someone look for parts which are going to be overpriced, and the company might be gone forever. You can buy common business laptops such as thinkpad and swap the parts easily and cheaply. People aren’t swapping their 2011 i3 for a 2011 i7 if they care about performance; they’re getting an i5 from 2018. None of these swappable parts are unique aside from th…

> People aren’t swapping their 2011 i3 for a 2011 i7 if they care about performance I beg to differ. I swapped my 2011 i5-2500k for a 2012 i7-3770 and it was a nice and cheap upgrade. Used hardware is cheap, there is no reason to not upgrade it all the way.

You’re really depending on your mobo to not blow a cap and using way more energy. A used older ryzen 5 is comparable and much better, and the mobos are current. Even a newer intel F processor isn’t much more the 3770K is way overpriced for its performance.

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#106

Post by ghaff »

BoorishBears wrote: post #62
cyberbanjo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the used 2011 i3, that wouldn't become garbage if it were repairable would get sold to someone less performance / price consciousness? Now it gets trashed.

The other comment points it out correctly, no one wants it price conscious or not. Between the fact that many of them work without issue for years, and the fact that an new equivalent to your 2011 i3 becomes exponentially cheaper over time, repairing it will never be worth it. A Raspberry PI 4 is a functional computer but costs less than just the CPU of that i3 based machine while trouncing it in performance and powe…

It's true with electronic devices in general. I've tried to pass down (still in support) older tablets, Chromebooks, etc. through a friend who has some nieces and nephews. Basically, to quote my friend, "no one's interested in your old electronic crap."

Now I'm sure there are families with less money who might think differently but it's definitely not straightforward in general to hand down old computer-related stuff.

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#107

Post by UseStrict »

mlindner wrote: post #85
Vogtinator wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just about upgrades, in fact it's not even mainly about upgrades. It's about being able to understand the machine, repairing it when necessary and ultimately being able to rely on it. Otherwise your device might be a candidate for the bin after the warranty expired, which can be surprisingly quick.

This weird OCD obsession with wanting to be able to piece apart a device just like it's a car is just strange. The device is a complete package. You don't re-solder and reflash busted chips on a motherboard do you? So why do you want to be able to replace the higher level parts rather than the whole device? This isn't like a desktop where all the parts are bought from different manufacturers and assembled by an OEM o…

But why does it have to be that way? They ship off-the-shelf RAM and SSDs in the Framework fully or partially assembled kits. They released CAD files and drawings for their module system. They actually sell replacement parts for other components, much like an OEM automaker does. If my touchpad dies I'd rather be able to swap it out with a new $100 part than buy a whole new $1500 laptop.

It's a new company and have not been tested yet in terms of backwards-compatibility and ongoing inventory. But just because you can't swap parts in most laptops doesn't really imply that you shouldn't be able to.

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#108

Post by GhettoComputers »

canadaduane wrote: post #84
varispeed wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't buy parts from 3rd parties e.g. you can't source chips or connectors etc. on Mouser, then I can't see how this is much different from Apple. Just because manufacturer sells parts themselves (thus avoiding spending money on good repair service), probably won't save you much money considering you will have to spend your own time and make effort to fix it yourself. Nonetheless, any move into more repair fri…

I agree with your point, but I think it slightly misses the potential and (I believe) intent of Framework: they have opened their design specs and encouraged even DIY participants, making it possible for a cultural movement of innovation & right-to-repair to exist. It reminds me of revered machines like the Commodore 64 that didn't just create hardware (although they did that very well)--they enabled social clubs, th…

Opening them doesn’t mean it’ll be taken up. Everyone had a commandore so there was enthusiasm for it. This is another generic very niche laptop that has no defining benefits over others and so will find it hard to convince anyone to make some niche parts that doesn’t have a large install base.

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#109

Post by xondono »

I get that for people from IT it sounds surprising, but from a hardware perspective I would say it’s a good change.

Instead of having a SPI flash memory with the firmware they’ve gone ahead and merged that into a single flash memory.

It’s weird because we are used to see disks as independent modules, but for these devices that’s simply a useless distinction, something that we keep for legacy reasons, not because it provides any meaningful advantage.

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#110

Post by wtallis »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #76
liminalsunset wrote: post #26

General grumpiness about this particular design decision aside, it appears that since the T2 Macs, the main SSD was being used to store core system firmware. On T2 I think it's BridgeOS that sends the EFI image to the Intel side to boot it, and it does the firmware verification and loading. This setup has a benefit; namely, it is now impossible to brick the system with a bad BIOS/EFI flash, and you'll never need to u…

>whatever failure damaged the SSD is statistically likely to compromise the reliability of the rest of the board Sorry, but how? That's just reads like BS. SSDs have limited lifespans due to the limited write cycles of the NAND chips. So no, what damages NAND does not damage the rest of the board. The more you write and swap to flash, the faster it wears out, taking your Macbook down with it when it dies. Granted, I…

In practice, exhausting NAND write endurance is usually not what causes SSDs to fail in the field. It is especially unlikely to be the underlying cause of unexpected and seemingly premature catastrophic SSD failure.

Also, it is not possible for an SSD to decrease your usable storage space over time. That would break any partition table format or filesystem that expects an ordinary block device. It also wouldn't win you any significant increase unusable lifespan, because when your drive starts retiring large numbers of blocks, all of your blocks are on the verge of failure. (Though keep in mind that "failure" here is defined as "only able to retain data for one year" for consumer SSDs).

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