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Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

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Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#101

God I cannot wait to talk to whales. Their oral histories must be incredible. People have fantasized about communicating with extraterrestrials for ages. I don't understand why we haven't invested significant resources in trying to communicate with the other animals on our own planet. What an incredibly weird and non translatable experience it will be to (finally?!) start this adventure with whales. Tangent time. If…

Do we even know that whales communicate with conscious intent? What if the sounds they make were mere reflexes driven by some internal state like adrenaline, sex or hunger hormones?

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#102
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean.. hate to be a party pooper, but just because we created a the equivalent of gpt3 for whales, does that mean we can do anything useful? Like talking to whales.. we haven't even established how their language works. What language even is, is a good question. I read it once demonstrated as this; some species of monkey has a specific call they do when they see a panther, and it results in all the monkeys who hear…

I would expect the vast majority of their comms to be : Nice water over here Loads of food here I'm down to F, anyone else? Do we really have any evidence that suggests it'll be anything else?

The best example I know offhand is the custom hunting styles of different orca pods. Given that orcas also play I find it more likely that there is rich communication than not.

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#103
post #74

God I cannot wait to talk to whales. Their oral histories must be incredible. People have fantasized about communicating with extraterrestrials for ages. I don't understand why we haven't invested significant resources in trying to communicate with the other animals on our own planet. What an incredibly weird and non translatable experience it will be to (finally?!) start this adventure with whales. Tangent time. If…

I mean.. hate to be a party pooper, but just because we created a the equivalent of gpt3 for whales, does that mean we can do anything useful? Like talking to whales.. we haven't even established how their language works. What language even is, is a good question. I read it once demonstrated as this; some species of monkey has a specific call they do when they see a panther, and it results in all the monkeys who hear…

My less pessimistic (dare I say realistic, ha!) take is that whales will have little of note to say. Complex communication (in contrast to "simple" communication like the evocation of emotions, e.g. fear, anger, sadness, etc.) does seem to require the biological need for it, otherwise the genes that control factors that manifest it ("depth" and richness of sense, proclivity for specific mental models, etc.) do not get reinforced and "bred" into the animal.

The other side to this is that communication is mostly non-verbal. For example, chimpanzees, perhaps the most communicationally-advanced animals, besides us, do have a few different "verbal" signals they use. But there is also a richness of non-verbal communication (body language, facial expression, using their hands, etc.). And then these signals have to be also interpreted by other chimpanzees, thus training them to develop new mental models about these signals (and leading way to complex communication).

Whereas all whales really have are clicks, whistles, and "pulsed calls." Along with a tail with much less dexterity than a hand (but is still used in communicating amongst themselves). The richness of their communication is much less than the chimp, so so far it seems they can only use it for rudimentary purposes (mating, hunting/intelligent organization and navigation, and figuring out who is part of the "tribe"/pod).

But in that vein, they're still closer to a chimp than they are to us. Humans have evolved such complex mental models for the world and other humans within it, that all animals are basically on the same, much lower level in comparison.

On a less relevant topic, whales are social animals that stick together, make close bonds with family, and do have a certain "culture" that gets passed down, and is constantly morphing a la "whale songs." It almost pains me to think about what emotions a whale would feel (if it even does) about friends and family that have been hunted to death.

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#104
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm working on a sort-of language as a side project and have fallen down many of the same rabbit holes that you have. I don't think questions are one of the key features that make language special because in the language I'm working on questions are an emergent property. There are two structural words in my language, "propose" and "tell". From these words you can build complicated ideas such as lying ("I propose to y…

>The feature of language that seems the most surprisingly powerful is placeholder words. The words like "someone", "somewhere", "somehow". >I call these the entropy words because they are the words for the information you don't have. They represent sets of possible things rather than a literal specific thing. As an aside, you might know this, but that's how questions are formed in Chinese. You basically use an enunci…

Have you looked into the concept of "theory of mind" in developmental psychology and the relevant experiments on children e.g. the "false belief task"?

IMHO that is essential to the whole concept of questions; questions only make sense if you have an internal model of someone else's mind that contains different knowledge than you have.

Animals which do not have this capability (I'm not well informed on this, but it looks possible that primates don't, e.g. https://users.ox.ac.uk/~ascch/Celia's%20pdfs/1998theoryofmin... would be fundamentally limited below the level of very young kids; and perhaps it's not a coincidence that the theory of mind seems to form at about the same age when kids have seem to have an excess of "why" questions about everything.

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#105

God I cannot wait to talk to whales. Their oral histories must be incredible. People have fantasized about communicating with extraterrestrials for ages. I don't understand why we haven't invested significant resources in trying to communicate with the other animals on our own planet. What an incredibly weird and non translatable experience it will be to (finally?!) start this adventure with whales. Tangent time. If…

> God I cannot wait to talk to whales. Their oral histories must be incredible.

What makes you think they'd have oral histories?

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#107
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean.. hate to be a party pooper, but just because we created a the equivalent of gpt3 for whales, does that mean we can do anything useful? Like talking to whales.. we haven't even established how their language works. What language even is, is a good question. I read it once demonstrated as this; some species of monkey has a specific call they do when they see a panther, and it results in all the monkeys who hear…

I would expect the vast majority of their comms to be : Nice water over here Loads of food here I'm down to F, anyone else? Do we really have any evidence that suggests it'll be anything else?

“He’s lonely.”

No. You’re lonely!

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#108

This sounds like a nightmare for the whales, to have an AI babbling into the whales shared communication channel.

Hey y’all, over by the Horn of Africa there’s a big school of diamond-studded squirrels. Break a leg.

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#109

God I cannot wait to talk to whales. Their oral histories must be incredible. People have fantasized about communicating with extraterrestrials for ages. I don't understand why we haven't invested significant resources in trying to communicate with the other animals on our own planet. What an incredibly weird and non translatable experience it will be to (finally?!) start this adventure with whales. Tangent time. If…

> God I cannot wait to talk to whales. Their oral histories must be incredible. What makes you think they'd have oral histories?

I think it's a decent enough guess and I'd give better then even odds on it.

Whales have the capacity to communicate. Stories are more effective than unadorned facts at being remembered (for humans anyways). Remembering important facts is a huge advantage in almost any context. The biggest jump imo is the second one, but I find it unlikely that whales would have a radically different memory storage and retrieval model than humans

Re: Attempting to interpret sperm whale clicks with AI, then talk back

#110
post #74

God I cannot wait to talk to whales. Their oral histories must be incredible. People have fantasized about communicating with extraterrestrials for ages. I don't understand why we haven't invested significant resources in trying to communicate with the other animals on our own planet. What an incredibly weird and non translatable experience it will be to (finally?!) start this adventure with whales. Tangent time. If…

I mean.. hate to be a party pooper, but just because we created a the equivalent of gpt3 for whales, does that mean we can do anything useful? Like talking to whales.. we haven't even established how their language works. What language even is, is a good question. I read it once demonstrated as this; some species of monkey has a specific call they do when they see a panther, and it results in all the monkeys who hear…

Recording the feats of the emperor is already miles beyond what whales probably do and I d go as far as to call that recorded History,since the goal of writing is to allow the dead to speak to the future, a megalomaniac endeavour only overly inflated brains could think about.

After seeing that poor monkey spending his life learning sign language just to ask for more bananas and never asking a tough question, Im a bit pesimistic.

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