The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#101

Post by iammisc » Wed, Oct 27, 2021, 8:47 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #96

I made the same observation about chasidic Jews. On first glance, their engagement with technology may seem backwards (eg, still on feature phones?) but as time goes on we're seeing those choices pan out right (eg - people who go on tech detoxes, etc - something you never need to do when you're chasidic or amish.) I would say the thing that's missing from "our" society is a compass. What is it that we want to be, wha…

> I would say the thing that's missing from "our" society is a compass. What is it that we want to be, what do we value the most, etc? You begin by knowing those answers, and then you can evaluate whether technology helps or hurts you.

This is religion, as you point out.

> But the chasidim and the amish express that by living close to their family, while "a typical American" moves far away from home and then has to rely on FaceTime and WhatsApp.

It's not just this binary though. There are various levels of facetime and whatsapping as well.

And actually, most americans live close to family. On HN we are a bubble.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#102

Post by satellite2 » Wed, Oct 27, 2021, 8:47 PM UTC

mikem170 wrote: post #62

satellite2 wrote: post #26

I think this articles attributes intent and wisdom where it is not due and as such should be at best considered a romanticization of their culture. Even tough it seems they understand the choice they are making regarding some technology and even tough in many case with hindsight it appears that they made some judicious choices for their society wellbeing, I argue they do not have the tools to make those choices in an…

> I argue they do not have the tools to make those choices in an unbiased manner as those tought experiments are also technological byproducts. I wonder if the rest of us use technology in an unbiased experimental manner without regard to the consequences? As the decades go by we become increasingly stressed having to deal with commutes and corporations and bureaucracies and living in a world of phone zombies, mass m…

Only the future will tell if we manage to solve problems faster than we are creating new ones. But I'm pretty sure abdication means death at this point. We are not crocodiles that managed to find a timeless form and effortless survival behaviour. We are brand new, extremely weak but extremely smart, I think it's pretty revealing about our nature and survival options.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#103

Post by iammisc » Wed, Oct 27, 2021, 8:49 PM UTC

satellite2 wrote: post #26

I think this articles attributes intent and wisdom where it is not due and as such should be at best considered a romanticization of their culture. Even tough it seems they understand the choice they are making regarding some technology and even tough in many case with hindsight it appears that they made some judicious choices for their society wellbeing, I argue they do not have the tools to make those choices in an…

> Their stance regarding modern medicine, tolerating it when someone is truly ill, seems particularly hypocritical if not disingenuous.

Can you explain? The amish are not against technology by any means. They just don't think you need to let it run you. I mean, as many said, the amish use telephones and even cars if necessary for business, or emergency. How is this any different?

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#104

Post by zepto » Wed, Oct 27, 2021, 8:50 PM UTC

Aerroon wrote: post #85

zepto wrote: post #6

Good article in general, except for the title. I know many people and see many people online who understand these truths. The hard part is creating a viable alternative culture that can make collective choices about technology use. It’s also worth noting that the Amish rely on the ‘English’ I.e. American legal system and military for their defense. Their way of life doesn’t stand alone outside of American society.

But why do we need to make collective decisions about technology? Why can't I decide for myself based on what I see and think? Why is it better if somebody else decides for me? The beauty of a society that embraces individual choice is that the individual gets to choose. You can let somebody else decide for you, but you can also go against them. The article loses me on this point as well. Any individual can look at t…

> But why do we need to make collective decisions about technology? Why can't I decide for myself based on what I see and think? Why is it better if somebody else decides for me?

You can decide for yourself, but most technology is social, and so it matters quite a bit whether other people make similar decisions to you.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#105

Post by zepto » Wed, Oct 27, 2021, 8:51 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #83

op00to wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could they? If they were outside the legal system I would simply steal their land and build McMansions on it.

If they were outside the legal system, they could retaliate in any way they see fit. You would have to commit a trail-of-tears esque genocide to claim their land

Which is exactly what people did before legal systems were accepted.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#106

Post by iammisc » Wed, Oct 27, 2021, 8:52 PM UTC

rvbissell wrote: post #45

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's that if they leave the Amish they lose their community. I realize it's cool to fetishize them but think of them like the Jehovah's witnesses.

Yes, the shunning is problematic. But there is one key difference between Jehovah's Witnesses and the Amish, in this respect: The Amish encourage their teenagers to go experience the modern world, before making that commitment. Among Jehovah's Witnesses, that kind of pre-commitment behavior would lead to (reversible) soft-shunning. I think the rational play for an Amish youth would be to not commit to the religion, b…

How is shunning problematic. If they didn't shun, they would no longer be amish, or be able to preserve their culture. Perhaps we should appreciate the upside of asceticism.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#107

Post by paul7986 » Wed, Oct 27, 2021, 8:53 PM UTC

IIAOPSW wrote: post #29

leephillips wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, unlike Tesla, the Amish have a working auto-drive system.

There's a technological trade off to consider. For example, the Tesla doesn't literally smell like shit.

I trust a horse driven vehicle over any modern day self driving car!!!

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#108

Post by zepto » Wed, Oct 27, 2021, 8:57 PM UTC

guenthert wrote: post #59

post_break wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amish are strapped. They have lots of guns. They also have a lot of abuse that they sweep under the rug.

Citation needed. Pacifism is one of their basic tenets (actually rejection of violence is).

You may as well say that rejection of violence is a basic tenet of Americans too, given that violence is outlawed except in the case of self-defense.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#109

Post by iammisc » Wed, Oct 27, 2021, 8:58 PM UTC

setpatchaddress wrote: post #35

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #4

It's not just the Amish. Many communities have decided they wish to live at ~1850. It has always made me curious why, what do they know? If you look deeply in many religions they are the same. Buddhist monks aren't excluded from tech but they certainly dont own any themselves. Why? Because it's something to consider and create desires. Just as they shave their head not because of aesthetics but because now you never…

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/buddhist-monks-with-the... It's more complicated than that. Always. The monks I've known accept modern science, medicine, etc cheerfully. It's not really relevant to Buddhist spirituality any more than the advent of frozen fish sticks was. It's fine to LARP 1850 if that's your bag. But people who truly wish to live in the confines of that era will have children who die of cholera.…

Modern medicine often got its start in 1800s monasteries.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#110

Post by logosmonkey » Wed, Oct 27, 2021, 8:59 PM UTC

unethical_ban wrote: post #76

moedersmooiste wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really curious what those places are. Because for me it's the other way around. I live in a Dutch city where you can get around easily by walking, biking or public transport. And for those rare occasions I need a car, I use a car sharing service. Don't know if you live in car-dependent suburbia(most people do), but that doesn't sound appealing at all.

Well, you seem to realize that "car dependent suburbias" exist, so I don't know what your question is. Zoom in on Houston or Dallas, Texas for cities heavily reliant on autos. Or just about any place not in a major coastal city in the United States.

I think they were referring to places whereas owning a car is a burden and that the op didn't like. Not places where the need for a vehicle is paramount.