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Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

reuters.com

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Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#101

Post by 34679 »

GuB-42 wrote: post #98
Someone wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you think it’s OK if the car you own spies on you, using electricity you pay for? I’m rephrasing it that way to show that, depending on details this might be close to what Apple intended to do w.r.t. child pornography, something ‘the internet’ wasn’t a fan of, to say it mildly. There’s a difference here in that there’s an ‘investigation’, but you’re also talking of ‘car crashes and accidents ’, so this could get…

The car is already spying on you. I think the question is: if data is available to the manufacturer, should it be available to investigators? I am think it is reasonable. Tesla uses these data to protect themselves (for example by showing that autopilot wasn't in use during an accident). It is not really about user privacy anymore, it is about corporate interests, and I think road safety is more important, that's why…

"Dear Driver,

Upon inspection of your vehicular data following the non-injury accident in the parking lot of Piggly-Wiggly on 10/20/21, we have noted the following violations since you purchased the vehicle on 6/1/19. Images from the driver-facing cameras indicate you were the operator at the time of these violations. To avoid further fines and vehicular seizure, please remit payment to:

Your All-Seeing Local Government, 110 Main St, Chicago, IL

PS: Location data has indicated possible violations outside of our jurisdiction and pursuant to our data sharing agreement, all information has been forwarded to the States of Illinois, Indiana, Missouri, Iowa, and Ohio for further analysis."

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#102

Post by torstenvl »

vagrantJin wrote: post #96
Someone wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you think it’s OK if the car you own spies on you, using electricity you pay for? I’m rephrasing it that way to show that, depending on details this might be close to what Apple intended to do w.r.t. child pornography, something ‘the internet’ wasn’t a fan of, to say it mildly. There’s a difference here in that there’s an ‘investigation’, but you’re also talking of ‘car crashes and accidents ’, so this could get…

> this might be close to what Apple intended to do w.r.t. child pornography, something ‘the internet’ wasn’t a fan of, to say it mildly. Not to completely disregard your point but its not the same. After seeing a few brain bits splattered across windows and chairs/dashboards, stray limbs...road accidents are in another lesgue entirely. We sort of need accidents to happen so that regulation of technology will use bloo…

Did you honestly just say "road accidents" are worse than raping children on camera and sending out the video for people to get off to? Seriously?

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#103

Post by micheljansen »

relativ575 wrote: post #87
gzer0 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the request for "any and all data" not yield ALL of the data in the first place? Is it because you must request specific data? Is making a request for all data from the manufacturer not allowed? Am I missing something here?

It wasn't a request for "all and any data". From the article: > Tesla however only supplies a specific subset of signals, only the ones requested, for a specific timeframe, whereas the log files contain all the recorded signals Tesla provided exactly what was requested and nothing more. Now that the government knows what is more in the data they can request that too, even if it's irrelevant to the investigations.

Interestingly I once requested my telemetry data under GDPR for an accident and I did get a dump of everything.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#104

Post by MrDresden »

Someone wrote: post #91
MrDresden wrote: post #30

Frankly I feel that for this kind of investication (car crashes and accidents) the manufacturer should be required to hand over all data relevant to the investigation. On device logs are probably the most relevant data you could get in these cases. That this lab decided to try to decipher the data, and found troves of it that wasn't known to exist before, speaks to how the relationship must be. They didn't trust Tesl…

So, you think it’s OK if the car you own spies on you, using electricity you pay for? I’m rephrasing it that way to show that, depending on details this might be close to what Apple intended to do w.r.t. child pornography, something ‘the internet’ wasn’t a fan of, to say it mildly. There’s a difference here in that there’s an ‘investigation’, but you’re also talking of ‘car crashes and accidents ’, so this could get…

My comment was clear and to the point on the availability of local on device data to car crash investigators. Take that as you may.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#105

Post by firebaze »

kortex wrote: post #85
bumbada wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Radar data is also an assumption, way weaker than cameras. Cars radar sensors are not the F22 ones, they are very simple, limited and it is not the sky in which metallic objects are foreign and there is empty space everywhere. The world on earth surface is full of metallic objects with very complex shapes and reflections everywhere(and you have military safety standards, my uncle got cancer(and died) after working wi…

Did you mean single pixel? Even with a single color, a camera provides a wealth of information. Radar is not quite a single pixel - there is speed, phase, and timing information - but it's much closer to a single pixel than to a monochrome camera. The driving radar I mean. The kit on used in aerospace sweeps out an area so it's more like a camera in the actual output. Side note: Sorry about your uncle, but I do wish…

If he was a radar technician, and worked close to the radar itself while it was operating, there's quite a chance this causes cancer.

See https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ijc.23988

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#106

Post by arghwhat »

mft_ wrote: post #62
arghwhat wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we're down to small UI differences on the dashboard, and having the driver notice the control forces...

…and multiple audio cues. Not being facetious, but aren’t audio, visual (=the dashboard), and touch (=control forces) the only ways a human is able to interact with a car? They could make the engagement or not of FSD more obvious in the UI, and maybe have spoken alerts? (Although at the moment there are so many audio alerts in a Tesla, I think it’s approaching saturation - the point where if everything is an alarm, t…

Audio cues in the form of a one-shot bell are completely useless for important information. A driver is naturally in a noisy environment and too busy paying attention to other things - and when they have time to worry about what the sound was, it's gone. The same applies to light UI changes in a display the driver rarely looks at - especially when it isn't even in front of them!

That's why you usually use pretty strong color-coded indicators in conventional dashboards to convey mode - hard to miss unlike vague UI differences in an already low-contrast UI, and they can be seen any time unlike an audio cue. Audio cues in such cars usually just mean "recheck the dashboard, a new lamp came on".

The only better thing I can think of (outside a continuous warning beep) would be a HUD display like other high-end cars.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#107

Post by arghwhat »

mft_ wrote: post #88
wil421 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Problem with the model 3 and Y are the lack of a screen in front of the driver. All of the ACC, Lane Assist, and self parking (can’t be engaged from the steering wheel) in my Jeep are displayed right in front of me. I don’t have to look away to see what’s turned on. My wife’s BMW is similar and it also has a HUD that displays everything. The driver never has to turn away from the road to figure out what’s happeni…

From similar discussions, this seems to be binary - compared to a 'normal' dashboard (which while central isn't in the driver's eye-line whilst watching the road, is often dark or lacking in contrast, and can be obscured by the wheel depending on the driver's size and seat settings) people either love or hate the M3/Y's screen location. I get on fine with it (and flicking my eyes there is arguably better than my othe…

HUDs need special windshields or floating glass to avoid double reflections from the laminated glass.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#108

Post by chuckee »

GuB-42 wrote: post #98
Someone wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you think it’s OK if the car you own spies on you, using electricity you pay for? I’m rephrasing it that way to show that, depending on details this might be close to what Apple intended to do w.r.t. child pornography, something ‘the internet’ wasn’t a fan of, to say it mildly. There’s a difference here in that there’s an ‘investigation’, but you’re also talking of ‘car crashes and accidents ’, so this could get…

The car is already spying on you. I think the question is: if data is available to the manufacturer, should it be available to investigators? I am think it is reasonable. Tesla uses these data to protect themselves (for example by showing that autopilot wasn't in use during an accident). It is not really about user privacy anymore, it is about corporate interests, and I think road safety is more important, that's why…

The car is already spying on you. I think the question is: It shouldn't be spying on you.

The data belongs to the car owner. If the owner wants to disable data collection, so be it. If anyone else wants that data, they can ask the owner for the decryption key and access to their car to make a copy.

I don't think it's even remotely reasonable for devices that we own to betray us. My car should protect me, not the manufacturer.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#110

Post by jaclaz »

petre wrote: post #47
jaclaz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see an issue with source code, nor intellectual property or similar, it is all about recorded data, the whole point is that Tesla, requested according to the Law to provide the recorded data (decrypted) provided only a (small) subset of such data and the guys from the NFI managed to decrypt the whole stuff, finding out that Tesla omitted data useful to establish the reasons of the crash. It also seems that -…

Well isn't that obstruction of justice?

As I see it, yes (IANAL), and also possibly contempt of Court.
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