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Apple October Event [video]

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Re: Apple October Event [video]

#101

Post by incrudible »

dkonofalski wrote: post #97
incrudible wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see you proposing any better, more aesthetically pleasing solution, only complaining. How about not having a notch, like literally every other Apple (and non-Apple) laptop? Is that even conceivable?

Then where would you put the camera and the sensors that are in there? If you don't have the notch, you have to increase the size of the bezel. Since the notch lives in the empty area of the menu bar, it's a better solution than a bezel and gives more screen real estate in the same form factor. Edit: 'Notch' not 'not'

Yes, have a slightly larger Bezel instead of a huge unappealing notch. Did I mention how much I do not like the notch? Look in any of the comments sections of this new product, how many people are commenting on how this notch is off-putting? Does it seem like a worthy tradeoff? I do not think so.

Re: Apple October Event [video]

#102

Post by stouset »

laurent92 wrote: post #73
asimpletune wrote: post #50

So, as far as I can tell, they listened to every single complaint people had about the last generation of pro Macs. These are in every meaning of the word pro machines. Now, they're so pro, I can't imagine why anyone would need one, unless they do multi-media professionally, or work exclusively in Xcode. I can't even believe they compromised on size and weight in order to deliver something more pro. It's a complaint…

Unfortunately, they compromised on price. A 16GB version is immediately 3000€ in Europe, which is a lot for a less well-off area than USA.

I would love to see you provide a link to a laptop with comparable specs to the 14" MBP at a cheaper price.

Re: Apple October Event [video]

#103

Post by incrudible »

stouset wrote: post #100
incrudible wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see you proposing any better, more aesthetically pleasing solution, only complaining. How about not having a notch, like literally every other Apple (and non-Apple) laptop? Is that even conceivable?

> How about not having a notch, like literally every other Apple (and non-Apple) laptop? Is that even conceivable? So literally the least functional and useful of all possible options? The notch isn't subtractive from previous generations' screen space. The bezel was removed except for the area where the notch is, adding a menu bar's worth of screen space. And the center of that menu bar is virtually always empty spa…

Let me tell you how this design is dysfunctional: It puts a piece of hardware that many people don't even use regularly in a very prominent place, in a way that many people find disturbing and unappealing. The UI needs to accommodate for this ("looks great in dark mode") to lessen the impact. The best thing you can say about it is "it's not that noticable" and "you'll get used to it".

There's another foolproof way to tell that the notch (on the iPhone) is a bad design: Nobody is copying it.

Re: Apple October Event [video]

#104

Post by incrudible »

acchow wrote: post #94
incrudible wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a gimmick. There are laptops with slim bezels, HD cameras and no notch whatsoever. If it was a tradeoff, they would've made it smaller. It's a branding effort. Remember, they're referring to the notch as iconic .

Wouldn’t removing the notch require either the bezel to become wider or the display thickness to increase to fit the camera hardware? The older macbooks just have a wider bezel and that’s where the camera goes. Which laptops have neither? This new macbook has a 3.5mm bezel and achieves it with the camera in the "notch". By comparison, the thinnest non-mac bezel I've seen is the Huawei Matebook at 4.4mm but it puts in…

The current Dell XPS has slim bezels, way slimmer than a current Macbook. Perhaps not as slim as this one, but it's not a meaningful difference, I'd take it over a notch any day. The camera is at the top.

Re: Apple October Event [video]

#105

Post by Fezzik »

incrudible wrote: post #103
stouset wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How about not having a notch, like literally every other Apple (and non-Apple) laptop? Is that even conceivable? So literally the least functional and useful of all possible options? The notch isn't subtractive from previous generations' screen space. The bezel was removed except for the area where the notch is, adding a menu bar's worth of screen space. And the center of that menu bar is virtually always empty spa…

Let me tell you how this design is dysfunctional : It puts a piece of hardware that many people don't even use regularly in a very prominent place, in a way that many people find disturbing and unappealing. The UI needs to accommodate for this ("looks great in dark mode") to lessen the impact. The best thing you can say about it is "it's not that noticable" and "you'll get used to it". There's another foolproof way t…

Maybe everyone has stopped copying the notch (I’m honestly not sure), but numerous manufacturers were copying it soonafter the iPhone X release. See: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/2/28/17062030/i...

Edit, to finish the thought: so it remains to be seen if other manufacturers will follow-suit this time.

Re: Apple October Event [video]

#106

Post by acchow »

incrudible wrote: post #104
acchow wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t removing the notch require either the bezel to become wider or the display thickness to increase to fit the camera hardware? The older macbooks just have a wider bezel and that’s where the camera goes. Which laptops have neither? This new macbook has a 3.5mm bezel and achieves it with the camera in the "notch". By comparison, the thinnest non-mac bezel I've seen is the Huawei Matebook at 4.4mm but it puts in…

The current Dell XPS has slim bezels, way slimmer than a current Macbook. Perhaps not as slim as this one, but it's not a meaningful difference, I'd take it over a notch any day. The camera is at the top.

The XPS also compromised - the camera quality is terrible, especially in non-optimal lighting.

"That camera is really embarrassing given the price tag. We got one for our CEO as a replacement.... everything was working well until he had a video meeting.... so embarrassing"

extensive thread on this discussion: https://www.dell.com/community/XPS/XPS13-9300-2020-version-w...

You can see the difference for yourself at 3:13 here

https://youtu.be/QgFd_w2n1es?t=193

Grainy, ghosting, compression artifacts, and looks like the FPS is lower too.

Re: Apple October Event [video]

#107

Post by stouset »

incrudible wrote: post #103
stouset wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How about not having a notch, like literally every other Apple (and non-Apple) laptop? Is that even conceivable? So literally the least functional and useful of all possible options? The notch isn't subtractive from previous generations' screen space. The bezel was removed except for the area where the notch is, adding a menu bar's worth of screen space. And the center of that menu bar is virtually always empty spa…

Let me tell you how this design is dysfunctional : It puts a piece of hardware that many people don't even use regularly in a very prominent place, in a way that many people find disturbing and unappealing. The UI needs to accommodate for this ("looks great in dark mode") to lessen the impact. The best thing you can say about it is "it's not that noticable" and "you'll get used to it". There's another foolproof way t…

> It puts a piece of hardware that many people don't even use regularly in a very prominent place…

Perhaps you’ve heard of this “pandemic” thing where an absurd number of professionals are working remotely and participating in virtual meetings?

> …in a way that many people find disturbing and unappealing.

But that the clearly overwhelming majority—if the iPhone is any evidence—simply do not notice enough to care about. iPhones with the notch have continued to sell in record-setting numbers, despite your own personal sensibilities.

> The best thing you can say about it is "it's not that noticable" and "you'll get used to it".

The best thing I can say about it is that it’s a phenomenally well-executed compromise that leaves a frequently-needed piece of hardware in an ideal place while reducing useless bezels, adding screen real estate, and cleverly occupying an area of the screen that is almost certainly the most underutilized in all of macOS. Compared to the alternatives (a thicker bezel with lost screen real-estate, a thicker lid with a worse-quality camera, or a camera placed elsewhere) it is quite literally the optimal technical choice.

That it’s aesthetically unpleasant to some people is actually the worst thing you can say about it, and if it’s anything like the one on my phone, I literally won’t notice it unless someone is actively pointing it out.

> There's another foolproof way to tell that the notch (on the iPhone) is a bad design: Nobody is copying it.

You are one quick Google search away from enlightenment, friend.

Re: Apple October Event [video]

#108

Post by dkonofalski »

incrudible wrote: post #101
dkonofalski wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then where would you put the camera and the sensors that are in there? If you don't have the notch, you have to increase the size of the bezel. Since the notch lives in the empty area of the menu bar, it's a better solution than a bezel and gives more screen real estate in the same form factor. Edit: 'Notch' not 'not'

Yes, have a slightly larger Bezel instead of a huge unappealing notch. Did I mention how much I do not like the notch? Look in any of the comments sections of this new product, how many people are commenting on how this notch is off-putting? Does it seem like a worthy tradeoff? I do not think so.

Literally everyone, besides you, in this HN thread is commenting on how it's a good solution and gives more screen real estate while maintaining the aspect ratio. The only people complaining about it, including you, haven't really specified what about it is unappealing.

Re: Apple October Event [video]

#109

Post by acchow »

incrudible wrote: post #104
acchow wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t removing the notch require either the bezel to become wider or the display thickness to increase to fit the camera hardware? The older macbooks just have a wider bezel and that’s where the camera goes. Which laptops have neither? This new macbook has a 3.5mm bezel and achieves it with the camera in the "notch". By comparison, the thinnest non-mac bezel I've seen is the Huawei Matebook at 4.4mm but it puts in…

The current Dell XPS has slim bezels, way slimmer than a current Macbook. Perhaps not as slim as this one, but it's not a meaningful difference, I'd take it over a notch any day. The camera is at the top.

Here's more comical discussion of the XPS camera:

https://www.dell.com/community/XPS/XPS-15-9500-camera-webcam...

"This webcam is disgusting. They won’t admit it when you call. They keep telling you to install drivers and redo every install you have."

"It's the image sensor they went with... Bottom of the barrel $0.52 sensor. I'm skipping this generation of XPS entirely and keeping with my Macbook Pro for a number of reasons.

1. The trackpad is horrible 2. The software had too many bugs (brightness, sound crackles, fans) 3. The keyboard isn't that great 4. The camera quality"

"I have this same problem with a new XPS 15 9500: blurry & grainy camera/webcam. Lots of complaints with those on Zoom, Goggle Meets, etc. with me. Help! Can this be fixed or should I return my 2-month old computer??"

"The stock webcam is by far the worst feature of the XPS. I’m also disappointed with the unreliability of the trackpad."

"Same here, everything that has been said. Camera is , embarrassing for Dell and for me, should I choose to use it"

Re: Apple October Event [video]

#110

Post by incrudible »

acchow wrote: post #109
incrudible wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current Dell XPS has slim bezels, way slimmer than a current Macbook. Perhaps not as slim as this one, but it's not a meaningful difference, I'd take it over a notch any day. The camera is at the top.

Here's more comical discussion of the XPS camera: https://www.dell.com/community/XPS/XPS-15-9500-camera-webcam... "This webcam is disgusting. They won’t admit it when you call. They keep telling you to install drivers and redo every install you have." "It's the image sensor they went with... Bottom of the barrel $0.52 sensor. I'm skipping this generation of XPS entirely and keeping with my Macbook Pro for a number of…

Macbook cameras are awful as well. That's besides the point. It doesn't mean it "can't be done". You could have a 4K front-facing camera in a tiny pinhole, like in many Android phones. It's just not something laptop makers put a focus on, because customers tend to not care, or at least they didn't until video-conferencing became ubiquitous.
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